W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > October 2005

Re: Simple template-based editing

From: Andrew Fedoniouk <news@terrainformatica.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:24:34 -0700
Message-ID: <00b201c5c7d2$5c5c9c80$3201a8c0@Terra>
To: "Matthew Raymond" <mattraymond@earthlink.net>
Cc: "W3C CSS" <www-style@w3.org>

From: "Matthew Raymond" <mattraymond@earthlink.net>
>> Couple of examples:
>> http://terrainformatica.com/hsmile/images/controls2.jpg
>> http://terrainformatica.com/hsmile/images/hsmileselect.png
>> Again <select> here is just a div with overflow:auto
>> correspondent behavior knows of how to select
>> contained <option>s.
>> And more:
>> <select>
>>     <ul>
>>           <li style="role:option">one</li>
>>           <li style="role:option">two</li>
>>           <li><option>two</option></li>
>>     </ul>
>> </select>
>   This is all kinds of corrupt. First of all, the unordered list markup
> serves no semantic purpose. The <select> is already a list of options to
> select from, so I can only assume that you're using the list markup for
> list-like presentation. This is clearly the domain of CSS, and could
> probably be achieved with just the <option> elements using existing CSS
> selectors and properties.

Matthew, you are in captivity of stereotypes. Forget about legacy browsers 
HTML specification for the sec.

selects, set of radios and checkboxes are all lists semantically speaking :)

select is a list of radios, multi-select is a list of checkboxes .
They differ only by style of presentation (nb!) and very slightly by

Semanticly (sic!) <select> or set of radios or set of checkboxes
are just lists:

<ul style="presentation-and-behavior">

Having this it would be possible for example to better style inputs for
different media, e.g. for printing.

Having this also it would be possible to say

<ul style="presentation-and-behavior">

to represent hierarchical or groupped lists, etc.

>   Secondly, you're using CSS, which is supposed to be exclusively
> presentational, as a way of assigning semantics to specific markup. This
> is totally backwards. The markup holds the semantics, and CSS holds
> presentation. For that matter, a CSS property is supposed to be a
> _hint_, and therefore may be disregarded by the user agent. As a result,
> your list item markup isn't even guaranteed to behave like an option,
> even if the user agent is fully compliant with CSS.


Style definition is presentational entity - no doubts here.
In contrary, style selector as an entity is universal thing
- by adding 'behavior' to the list of attributes we are not
changing presentational nature of CSS - we just reuse
existing CSS selector mechanism.

Imagine that you have such 'behaviors' as a system of
ready to use lego elements. Then you can construct
not only existing widget set of HTML but something
more rich in order of magnitude. Theoretically :)

Andrew Fedoniouk.
Received on Monday, 3 October 2005 04:25:00 UTC

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