W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > July 2005

Re: Server and Client Capabilities (Where Info. Should Be Located)

From: Laurens Holst <lholst@students.cs.uu.nl>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:15:03 +0200
Message-ID: <42D513D7.3000502@students.cs.uu.nl>
To: Orion Adrian <orion.adrian@gmail.com>
Cc: www-style@w3.org

Orion Adrian wrote:

>Yes, that's how it's advertised, but there is no method for consuming
>based on this role in either CSS or XFrames.

If a user wants to ‘consume’ (I assume here you mean change the position 
of the document elements), he could write e.g. the following user 
stylesheet for XHTML 2.0 (or let it be generated automatically):

* [role=navigation] {
    position: absolute;
    width: 10em;
* [role=main] {
    position: absolute;
    left: 10em;

If by ‘consume’ you mean machine processing or user processing of any 
kind, that’s possible given the standardised values on role and has 
nothing to do with CSS.

>>Here, too, things that change the meaning of the styled document should
>>be expressed in the markup for the document, and not in CSS. So your
>>'guideline' doesn't really makse sense, because the situation that you
>>sketch (new -or old, why make a distinction?- properties fundamentally
>>changing the meaning) shouldn't arise in the first place.
>The meaning here doesn't change and I'm not quite sure how you reached
>that conclusion. I'm talking about consuming the elements provide
>either by link link or by the role attribute.
I literally quote from your guideline no. 2: ‘change the meaning’. And I 
have no clue what you mean with ‘consuming’ (again that word - what does 
it mean in this context?) nor which elements you are referring to as 
‘link link’.

>If this is the domain of XFrames, then CSS is oversteping its bounds,
>if it is the domain of CSS, then it's not being very semantic. Either
>way, I see a problem. I have yet to see a conversation outside myself
>to say, position: absolute is outside the domain of CSS.
That’s nonsense. CSS is a styling language. XFrames positioning may be 
implemented by means of CSS. Just like in many implementations, <img 
src="" width="50" height="100"/> has its attributes mapped directly to 
the CSS width and height properties, even though those sizes itself are 
meta-information and part of the document.

>If you want to say, hey this is XFrames' thing, then I'll happily go
>away after CSS stops doing the exact same function.
CSS does not. The positioning part of XFrames may be implemented by 
means of CSS, just like the default rendering of <em> in italics is 
implemented with CSS. The emphasis itself however is marked up 
semantically in the HTML.

Similarly the role of a section containing the navigation of a page is 
marked up semantically with role="navigation", and the actual 
positioning of it is done with CSS.

I see you have significant trouble distinguishing semantics from 
presentation. You want to create a language that does both.


Ushiko-san! Kimi wa doushite, Ushiko-san!!
Laurens Holst, student, university of Utrecht, the Netherlands.
Website: www.grauw.nl. Backbase employee; www.backbase.com.
Received on Wednesday, 13 July 2005 13:15:03 UTC

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