W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > January 2003

Re: XBL is (mostly) W3C redundant, and CSS is wrong W3C layer for semantic behavior *markup

From: Shelby Moore <shelby@coolpage.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 18:03:25 -0600
Message-Id: <4.1.20030105175140.03cbda50(null)>
To: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
Cc: www-style@w3.org

At 11:42 PM 1/5/2003 +0000, Ian Hickson wrote:
>> However, if you instead used the CSS "display" property to change a
>> <li> into a <table> element, then you would be creating
>> non-conforming semantics.
>CSS is unable to do this. Even XBL is unable to do this.
>All CSS and XBL can do is change the _rendering_ of the element so
>that it happens to use table-like layout.

I meant "table-cell", per David Hyatt's examples:


"Using pure CSS, I can turn an <li> into a table-cell, or make a <table>
into a block, or generate content before and after an element."

>In any case, there isn't any clause in the HTML specification that
>says that rendering <li> elements with table layout is wrong. (I

Then in that case, display is "presentation".

But all cases of "display" would need to be analyzed against the HTML spec
before striking the optionality clause from the CSS spec.  I am not 100%
confident that all cases of display changes will not violate some aspect of
HTML spec.

>>> But I'm even more suspicious of efforts that promote sending
>>> generic XML over the net for general purpose documents.
>> If I markup all the dates in my document using a custom tag
>> <mydates>, it doesn't cause any harm.
>This is a huge misconception of the XML groupies.

XML "groupies" are also member of W3C and I wonder how they would react to
your characterization of them as "groupies".  Does that advance your
argument somehow??

> It _does_ cause

Go tell it on the XML mountain.  This list is not the proper forum.  In the
XML forum, the experts can properly debate you.

> It means that implementations that do not apply your style hints
>will totally fail to convey the document in any reasonable way.

Similar to if CSS "display:none" removes content at presentation?

>You can actually see this now with documents that use <table> elements
>for layout, or <div> elements for styling. Non-visual and non-CSS UAs
>respectively don't have any chance of rendering the document usefully.

Custom tags is actually a direction towards correcting that problem.

Highly subjective debate deleted.

-Shelby Moore
Received on Sunday, 5 January 2003 19:02:34 GMT

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