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Re: css3-lists: Coptic and Ionic Greek

From: by way of Bert Bos <xalkina@otenet.gr>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:50:05 +0100
To: www-style@w3.org
Message-Id: <200211121450.45797.xalkina@otenet.gr>

Christopher Hoess (by way of Bert Bos ) wrote:
 > The following describes the behavior of four proposed additional
 > list-style-types, all of which are algorithmic.
 >
 >
 > "upper-ionic-greek" and "lower-ionic-greek" (these names
 > are provisional) correspond to the classical Greek numbering system,
 >  which is said to be preferred over Roman numerals for list
 > numbering in written Greek.

   Let me first note that there is no other greek numbering system
besides the ancient one! That is, the one described in the WD, where
 the greek letters are mapped one-to-one to numbers is invalid. The
 ancient greek numbering system however contains two dead letters in
 its higher hundreds positions, which are not used anymore. So you may
 consider the one used today a "variation" of the ancient, but you
 should note that not all number can be represented!!!

   Besides, I think (but I am not sure) that ancient greeks never used
capitals for numbering, so there's only a lower-greek variant. The
modern greek variation is used both in upper & lower case however.

 > Lower-Coptic
 >
 > This is a simple additive system defined for the numbers 1-999,999.
 > The digits are split into groups of three (if there are less than
 > six digits, the less significant group is filled first). Within each
 > group, appropriate digits are picked from the following list (at
 > most one per column) and written in descending order by value
 > (hundreds first). The characters in the more significant group are
 > combined with U+03FF, the combining double overline. The characters
 > in the less significant group are combined with U+0305, the
 > combining overline.
 >
 > Ones         Tens         Hundreds
 > 1   U+03B1 | 10  U+03B9 | 100  U+03C1
 > 2   U+03B2 | 20  U+03BA | 200  U+03C3
 > 3   U+03B3 | 30  U+03BB | 300  U+03C4
 > 4   U+03B4 | 40  U+03BC | 400  U+03C5
 > 5   U+03B5 | 50  U+03BD | 500  U+03C6
 > 6   U+03DB | 60  U+03BE | 600  U+03C7
 > 7   U+03B6 | 70  U+03BF | 700  U+03C8
 > 8   U+03B7 | 80  U+03C0 | 800  U+03C9
 > 9   U+03B8 | 90  U+03E5 | 900  U+03E1
 >
 > The suffix for the coptic numbering system is a dot U+002E.
 > Numbers outside the range of the coptic system are rendered using
 > the decimal rendering style.
 >
 > Lower-Ionic-Greek
 >
 > This system is identical to the "lower-coptic" system, but combines
 > the final letter in the less significant group with U+0374, the
 > Greek numeral sign rather than the combining overline, and the final
 > letter in the more significant group with U+0375, the greek lower
 > numeral sign, rather than the combining double overline.

   The table for lower greek is as follows:

  Ones                     Tens             Hundreds
   1   U+03B1 (α)         | 10  U+03B9 (ι) | 100  U+03C3 (σ)
   2   U+03B2 (β)         | 20  U+03BA (κ) | 200  U+03C4 (τ)
   3   U+03B3 (γ)         | 30  U+03BB (λ) | 300  U+03C5 (υ)
   4   U+03B4 (δ)         | 40  U+03BC (μ) | 400  U+03C6 (φ)
   5   U+03B5 (ε)         | 50  U+03BD (ν) | 500  U+03C7 (χ)
   6   U+03C3,U+03C4 (στ) | 60  U+03BE (ξ) | 600  U+03C8 (ψ)
   7   U+03B6 (ζ)         | 70  U+03BF (ο) | 700  U+03C9 (ω)
   8   U+03B7 (η)         | 80  U+03C0 (π) | 800  probably digamma
   9   U+03B8 (θ)         | 90  U+03C1 (ρ) | 900  probably stigma

   In parentheses are the equivalent iso-8859-7 characters, in case I
made any mistakes with the mapping!

   For 1000, a "small greek alpha" with a dot was used. Not sure
 whether the dot was adove or below alpha. It was repeated for more
 thousands...

 > Upper-Coptic
 >
 > This system is identical to the "lower-coptic" system but uses the
 > following codepoints instead.
 >
 > Ones         Tens         Hundreds
 > 1   U+0391 | 10  U+0399 | 100  U+03A1
 > 2   U+0392 | 20  U+039A | 200  U+03A3
 > 3   U+0393 | 30  U+039B | 300  U+03A4
 > 4   U+0394 | 40  U+039C | 400  U+03A5
 > 5   U+0395 | 50  U+039D | 500  U+03A6
 > 6   U+03DA | 60  U+039E | 600  U+03A7
 > 7   U+0396 | 70  U+039F | 700  U+03A8
 > 8   U+0397 | 80  U+03A0 | 800  U+03A9
 > 9   U+0398 | 90  U+03DF | 900  U+03E0
 >
 > Upper-Ionic-Greek
 >
 > This system is identical to the "lower-ionic-greek" system but uses
 > the codepoints of the "upper-coptic" system rather than the "coptic"
 > system.

   As noted earlier, there was no ancient upper system.

   The suffix for ancient greek was an apostrophe. Judging from its
name, that could be U+0374, greek numeral sign

   Modern greek uses the ancient lower system, but does not have the
 800 & 900 positions, so you can only count up to 799. The upper system
 uses the same characters in their upper case. The suffix in modern
 greek could be either a dot, or a closing parenthesis.

   Upper greek would be:

  Ones                     Tens         Hundreds
   1   U+0391 (Α)         | 10  U+0399 (Ι) | 100  U+03A2 (Σ)
   2   U+0392 (Β)         | 20  U+039A (Κ) | 200  U+03A3 (Τ)
   3   U+0393 (Γ)         | 30  U+039B (Λ) | 300  U+03A4 (Υ)
   4   U+0394 (Δ)         | 40  U+039C (Μ) | 400  U+03A5 (Φ)
   5   U+0395 (Ε)         | 50  U+039D (Ν) | 500  U+03A6 (Χ)
   6   U+03A3,U+03A4 (ΣΤ) | 60  U+039E (Ξ) | 600  U+03A7 (Ψ)
   7   U+0396 (Ζ)         | 70  U+039F (Ο) | 700  U+03A8 (Ω)
   8   U+0397 (Η)         | 80  U+03A0 (Π) | 800  none
   9   U+0398 (Θ)         | 90  U+03A1 (Ρ) | 900  none

 > Caveats:
 > It might be best to describe the Coptic systems as variations on the
 >  Ionic Greek systems, as is true historically.
 >
 > I am not entirely certain of my description of the combining
 > characters in the Ionic Greek systems and their position. Some
 > sources suggest that numbers in the less significant group should
 > use no combining symbol. I am also unsure as to whether it is
 > correct to use the numbers 10-999 with the lower combining symbol
 > (representing thousands). There appears to have been some use of
 > code point U+039C as a combining modifier (!), signifying "myriad",
 > but I have no more precise information.
 >
 > The code points U+03DA and U+03DB (upper- and lower-case "stigma")
 > are orthographic successors of code points U+03DC and U+03DD (upper-
 > and lower-case "digamma"), and the latter may in fact be more
 > correct to use in list numbering. Input on this point is
 > particularly welcomed from modern users of this numbering system. I
 > am also uncertain as to whether or not the dot is the most
 > appropriate suffix character.
 >
 > --
 > Chris Hoess

   Currently doing some research for more details. Will follow up, when
I have something more precise.

	C/

--
   Λες κι η στάθμη της αγάπης πάει να βρει
   Πόσοι κρύβονται στη λάσπη θησαυροί
   Πως κοπήκανε στα δάχτυλα οι σταυροί
   Γι' ανθρώπων έργα...
Received on Wednesday, 13 November 2002 10:32:26 GMT

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