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Re: X11 Colors (was Last call comments on CSS3 module: color)

From: Steven Pemberton <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 17:15:25 +0200
Message-ID: <00ac01c20723$a88df2c0$2002a8c0@srx41p>
To: Tantek Çelik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, "fantasai" <fantasai@escape.com>, <www-style@w3.org>
Cc: <www-svg@w3.org>

Tantek:
> >> A reasonable proposal - but I will not deprecate them in CSS3 unless
the
> >> SVG working group also deprecates in SVG 1.1.

Steven:
> > That's not how W3C works. They're not in CSS3 yet.

Tantek:
> Ah, but they are in CSS.  CSS is independent of any particular markup
> language.  There is no such thing as CSS for a particular set of tags or
> namespaces.  If any spec at W3C adds CSS properties or values, they are
> added for use in CSS with any other spec.  Arguing about that doesn't make
> it not so - that's how CSS works.
>
> By adding the X11 colors to the "color" property, SVG added them to CSS.

Nice try, but that's not how it works either. I will agree that they are in
SVG, but I cannot agree that means they are in CSS. It may mean that the SVG
has requested they be added to CSS (have they?), but not that are in by
default: there is no CSS spec that includes them, and that is the point we
are discussing.

> > You have to show
> > consensus, which judging by the responses in this group, does not yet
exist.
>
> But consensus is precisely what I am trying build on this issue.

I understand.

> There appears to be consensus in www-style to deprecate the X11 colors.

I don't see that. There were objections to adding X11 styles, and one
suggestion was to add them and immediately deprecate them. Another
suggestions was *not* to add them and deprecate them in SVG.

> Since this issue affects SVG, I think the consensus must include www-svg
as
> well, either way, hence I expanded the discussion to that forum.

Possibly. They should at least be aware of the objections to the bad design
of the X11 color set (newcomers, see the thread starting
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2002May/0122.html)

> > If one person feels strongly against an issue it's hard to get it
through
> > the REC process.
>
> As I said, it has already gotten through the REC process, and from the
likes
> of it, only because the folks on www-style who do not like the X11 colors
in
> general do not appear to review SVG and other W3C specs.  I understand and
> sympathize with the number of specs that W3C produces, but this is still
no
> excuse.

Personally I didn't care enough about SVG to fight. I care enough about CSS
that I don't want to see it spoiled.

> However, if, as you say, it's hard to get it through the REC process, then
> presumably SVG 1.1 has similar issues to CSS3 color with respect to the
X11
> colors, since neither is a REC yet.  Therefore, these two groups must
> resolve this matter one way or another in order to proceed with both of
> these specs.

Only if one agrees that SVG and CSS have to be consistent.

Best wishes,

Steven
Received on Wednesday, 29 May 2002 11:16:34 GMT

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