W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > May 2002

Re: X11 Colors (was Last call comments on CSS3 module: color)

From: Steven Pemberton <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 17:15:25 +0200
Message-ID: <00ac01c20723$a88df2c0$2002a8c0@srx41p>
To: Tantek Çelik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, "fantasai" <fantasai@escape.com>, <www-style@w3.org>
Cc: <www-svg@w3.org>

> >> A reasonable proposal - but I will not deprecate them in CSS3 unless
> >> SVG working group also deprecates in SVG 1.1.

> > That's not how W3C works. They're not in CSS3 yet.

> Ah, but they are in CSS.  CSS is independent of any particular markup
> language.  There is no such thing as CSS for a particular set of tags or
> namespaces.  If any spec at W3C adds CSS properties or values, they are
> added for use in CSS with any other spec.  Arguing about that doesn't make
> it not so - that's how CSS works.
> By adding the X11 colors to the "color" property, SVG added them to CSS.

Nice try, but that's not how it works either. I will agree that they are in
SVG, but I cannot agree that means they are in CSS. It may mean that the SVG
has requested they be added to CSS (have they?), but not that are in by
default: there is no CSS spec that includes them, and that is the point we
are discussing.

> > You have to show
> > consensus, which judging by the responses in this group, does not yet
> But consensus is precisely what I am trying build on this issue.

I understand.

> There appears to be consensus in www-style to deprecate the X11 colors.

I don't see that. There were objections to adding X11 styles, and one
suggestion was to add them and immediately deprecate them. Another
suggestions was *not* to add them and deprecate them in SVG.

> Since this issue affects SVG, I think the consensus must include www-svg
> well, either way, hence I expanded the discussion to that forum.

Possibly. They should at least be aware of the objections to the bad design
of the X11 color set (newcomers, see the thread starting

> > If one person feels strongly against an issue it's hard to get it
> > the REC process.
> As I said, it has already gotten through the REC process, and from the
> of it, only because the folks on www-style who do not like the X11 colors
> general do not appear to review SVG and other W3C specs.  I understand and
> sympathize with the number of specs that W3C produces, but this is still
> excuse.

Personally I didn't care enough about SVG to fight. I care enough about CSS
that I don't want to see it spoiled.

> However, if, as you say, it's hard to get it through the REC process, then
> presumably SVG 1.1 has similar issues to CSS3 color with respect to the
> colors, since neither is a REC yet.  Therefore, these two groups must
> resolve this matter one way or another in order to proceed with both of
> these specs.

Only if one agrees that SVG and CSS have to be consistent.

Best wishes,

Received on Wednesday, 29 May 2002 11:16:34 UTC

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