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Re: css3-lists: Coptic and Ionic Greek

From: Christos Cheretakis <xalkina@otenet.gr>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:30:32 +0200
Message-ID: <3DFDE388.4040208@otenet.gr>
To: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
CC: Web Style Sheets W3C Mailing List <www-style@w3.org>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 > On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Christos Cheretakis wrote:
 >
 >>I can tell you've made up your mind, and nothing I say can change
 >>that!
 >
 >
 > I never make up my mind to the extent that a reasoned argument won't
 > change it. :-)
 >

   Requiring the numbering systems we use to be called greek, and those 
that we do not use to not be called greek would be reasonable enough for 
me...

 >
 >>But for one, please do not call it neither traditional, nor greek,
 >>because it ain't any of it!!! You could name it
 >>english-textbooks-using-greek-letters-numbering-style, or perhaps
 >>german-teachers-using-greek-letters-numbering-style, or anything
 >>similar, but please, do not call it traditional greek.
 >
 >
 > As I understand it, there are three greek-related 'numbering' systems:
 >
 >  * the traditional greek that you want adding (I think someone mailed an
 >    algorithm of this system to the list; if they didn't then I'll 
need one
 >    for when I add the system to the spec)

   Actually, that's three of them.

 >  * the greek letters in alhpabetical order used as an alphabetical list
 >    style in english texts, lower-case version
 >
 >  * the greek letters in alhpabetical order used as an alphabetical list
 >    style in english texts, upper-case version
 >
 > As I understand it, the first of these does not have lower and upper case
 > versions.
 >
 > Now, CSS2 gives the name 'lower-greek' to the second one of these, and
 > that has already been implemented, so we're stuck with that.

   Yep, I know. Standard bodies do never correct their mistakes. They 
just call it backwards compatibility ;-) Copy-pasting from my local copy 
of REC-CSS2-19980512, which I think is not the latest revision, but is 
the best one at hand right now:

   lower-greek
     Lowercase classical Greek alpha, beta, gamma, ... (έ, ή, ί, ...)

   This is not something I'd call exact or unambiguous specification, 
one that could not use of any further clarification...

   It also states (one paragraph earlier):

   Note. This document does not specify the exact mechanism of each
   numbering system (e.g., how roman numerals are calculated). A future
   W3C Note may provide further clarifications.

   Well, make this the W3C-Note everybody's been holding their breath 
for since then! :-)

   Googling for "list-style-type" and "lower-greek" makes me quite happy 
as I mostly get to pages describing CSS2, a page from a Netscape 
employee describing their implementation, but no serious use of the 
numbering style named "lower-greek" till now.

 > To keep the naming at least semi-consistent, that would make the 
third one
 > 'upper-greek'.
 >
 > That leaves the first one.
 >
 > How about just 'greek'?
 >

   In my previous postings I've described three greek styles:
- lower(-modern)-greek
- upper(-modern)-greek
- ancient-greek, or lower-ancient-greek, if you prefer

   You could choose anything you want for the english textbook style, as 
long as you don't name it traditional-greek ;-)

 >
 > Now I have to point out that I know basically nothing about list styles;
 > I'm a CSS guy not a linguist. Therefore I am relying on everyone in
 > www-style to correct me on these things. So if there is a problem 
with the
 > names given above, please say so, I am eager to please as many people as
 > possible while staying within the limits set out by CSS!
 >

   Someone posted an algorithm for coptic numbering in a previous 
message, that sounded correct for use in greek numbering styles as well. 
As I'm currently having problems accessing the web (well, everything but 
Google, takes forever...) I'll give a rough outline of the greek styles 
here, without any warranties, expressed or implied, however :-)

   I'm using a C-style description, and I'm referring to the tables that 
have been included in my previous messages.

1. symbols[0] = symbols[3] = ones table
    symbols[1] = symbols[4] = tens table
    symbols[2] = symbols[5] = hundreds table

2. if (number >= 1000000) fallback to digits // no representation

3. position = 0;

4. current_digit = number % 10;

5. if (current_digit != 0)
      prepend symbols[position][current_digit-1] to representation
      // ie if zero, skip this step

6. ++position, number /= 10;

7. if (number) go to step 4

8. if (number >= 1000) prepend representation with U+0375

9. append U+0374 to representation

   For modern greek styles, this step would have to be added:

4.1. if ((position == 1 || position == 2 ||
           position == 4 || position == 5)
          && current_digit == 9)
        fallback to digits // ie, ignore anything generated thus far

   I know this could be more structured, but I'm not trying to do my 
best coding here. Steps 4-7 would make a great do-until candidate.

	C/

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Received on Monday, 16 December 2002 09:35:35 GMT

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