W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > February 2001

Re: style and browser defaults

From: Vadim Plessky <lucy-ples@mtu-net.ru>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:50:58 +0000
To: Matthew Brealey <webmaster@richinstyle.com>, www-style@w3.org
Cc: Lars Knoll <lars@trolltech.com>
Message-Id: <0102091442120E.00965@localhost.localdomain>
Friday 09 February 2001 10:36, Matthew Brealey ΞΑΠΙΣΑΜ:
|   --- Kyle VanderBeek <kylev@yaga.com> wrote:
|   >
|   > The solution is, of course, to be explicit about colors that may
|   > interact (simply: "If you override one color, you should override them
|   > all").  In this case, the stylesheet should specify the A:link set of
|   > pseudo-classes since link text will be on top of the specified
|   > background.  Failing to do so produces unpredictable results in the
|   > user agent.
|   You are quite correct in this, and this is indeed a deficiency on the
|   W3C site; although, by no means restricted to this site - when
|   incompetent CSS is even built into the world's most popular browser
|   [Internet Explorer] [*], it seems that we aren't likely to
|   get 'correct' and accessible style sheets any time soon.

You already don't get it.
Look at www.zdnet.com - it uses 4 different CSS tables, for each type of 
browser/platform combination. (IE-Mac, IE-Win, NS-Mac, NS-Win)
Beisdes, I have seen sites installing 6 or even 8 different CSS tables, 
depending on own Browser Selection criteria.

What is also sad is that Linux (not speaking about FreeBSD or embedded 
widgets) is totally ignored in such browser-check-type*install-CSS-for-it 

|   > First, I'd like to see the W3 stylesheets "fixed" so I can again read
|   > W3 specifications in Konqueror.
|   This would be a good idea. However, it doesn't really address the wider
|   problem of bad websites, which IMHO, will only get worse as more people
|   use style sheets - it's far easier to create a bad style sheet that
|   assumes that the user is using Internet Explorer with the factory
|   settings, than to create an accessible one. With websites now created:

|   (a) using tagsoup tools such as Dreamweaver and Front Page
|   (b) according to the final result rather than by formatting a
|   structured document
|   (c) by incompetent programmers

That's all right, but what do you propose about it?
It is real life situation.
MS has around 85% market share. Netscape marketshare decreases rapidly.
For example, here, in Russia, Netscape share dropped from 15% beginning of 
the year 2000 to 8% in Nov.2000. And, BTW, only 0.68% accounted for 

|   the problem will only get worse (particularly as programs like
|   Dreamweaver will make it even easier to integrate your bad CSS into a
|   site).
|   The standard complacent response to you would be to suggest that you
|   create a user style sheet.
|   BODY {background: #ddd !important;
|   color: black !important}
|   However, these are much easier said than done, and don't, quite
|   frankly, provide a consistent solution - it is difficult to get the
|   same style sheet to work on pages made from tables with backgrounds and
|   on pages with margins on the body element.
|   [Incidentally, I'm not sure if Konqueror allows you to use user style
|   sheets; it certainly didn't last time I used it, but that was v1.93.]

Konqueror allows it. See related mail from Lars Knoll on kfm-devel.
Pls do not make *suggestions* on Konqueror before updating your version to 
latest stable. KDE 2.1 will be released on Feb.12th, update to it.

|   This turns out to be a user agent issue, since it's not [short of
|   legislative changes of the kind that have been applied in Australia,
|   and that apply in the USA to governmental organisations] really
|   possible to effect changes to the ever growing tide of such websites.
|   As a result, you might like to investigate improving Konqueror's
|   handling of this issue, or else use Opera, which has a variety of ways
|   of dealing with this issue, including hotkey togglable style sheets,
|   the ability to disable parts of the document's style [tables, colours,
|   fonts, etc.], etc.
|   > Second, I think it would be good to include
|   > mention of the issues I am raising in this email in a future edition of
|   > relevant recommendations (HTML, XHTML, and CSS all come to mind).
|   Indeed. This specific issue has been mentioned before.
|   However, it is neither appropriate nor possible to provide a complete
|   list of recommendations; furthermore, too few people read and fully
|   digest the specification for it to make any difference.
|   * Try Tools/Internet Options, and then Accessibility. Click ignore font
|   sizes and ignore font styles. Then go to res://madeup. This brings up a
|   404 page, which will be unsightly in the extreme because of the use of
|   an absolute size (11pt) for line-height. This bad CSS is unfortunately
|   present in every single page in Internet Explorer.

And, once more, what do you suggest to do about it?
It looks like that MS IE6 will be integrated in Windows XP (a-ka Witzler), so 
it would be quite difficult to install different browser in Windows and make 
it usable for something.


Vadim Plessky
http://kde2.newmail.ru  (English)
http://kde2.newmail.ru/index_rus.html  (Russian)
Do you have Arial font installed? Just test it!
Received on Friday, 9 February 2001 07:17:33 GMT

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