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Re: indents

From: John Pozadzides <john@htmlhelp.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:03:59 GMT
To: www-style@w3.org
Cc: David Siegel <dave@verso.com>
Message-ID: <33502558.2809423@smtp.gte.net>
On Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:40:45 -0700, David Siegel <dave@verso.com> wrote:

>I want to call your attention to the fact that there is no way to denote a
>first-paragraph using HTML markup, and this makes it very difficult to do
>good typography without recoding our pages using the <DIV> tag.

I believe that someone already pointed out that the class attribute
would suffice so I will merely reiterate this point.  Further I will
stress the fact that if one intends to control the absolute layout of
all of the pages they create, they had better be prepared to recode them
for every new release of browser that comes out.  This has been
historically true since N1 went to N1.2...

> I am
>referring, of course, to the fact that in real typography you don't indent
>the first paragraph, that indents are <i>separators,</i> not "paragraph
>beginners." Both Todd and I have mentioned this several times, and to me,
>it shows that the priorities of the people writing HTML specs are on
>syntax, not on functionality. 

The priority of the people writing HTML specs is on properly defining a
Markup language (HTML), not a Layout language(CSS).  As you are aware,
the controls you are seeking can be found in CSS.  Furthermore, both of
the 4.0 browsers implement CSS at least partially.  

I believe that you should concentrate your efforts on insuring that
Netscape and Microsoft implement the entire CSS1 draft into their line
ups.  Then you will be able to control fonts, positioning, line spacing,
and everything else you are currently having to hack to get.

>       Believe it or not, there are other things real typographers do that
>the HTML and Style groups aren't thinking about, but they all too rarely
>ask designers what they want. We chime in now and again, but it's difficult
>because we're not syntax experts.

What do Typographers have to do with the Web?  I don't care what people
used to do in a past life, on the Web we all share a common title: Web
Designer.  You have to put away your old tools and use the new tools of
the new media.  And yes, there is a learning curve involved.  But I fail
to see the difference between learning the new CSS properties or
learning a million new HTML elements.  Either way, you will have to
learn new stuff and if we try to control layout (typography, etc.) with
HTML we will need a new element for every single thing or every
combination of different things.

CSS will handle it all far more simply and far more elegantly.

>       I look forward to having to use style-sheet terorism to communicate
>with my readers. At least we're headed in the right direction, no thanks to
>certain tag manufacturers, who shall remain nameless.

Why did you refer to implementing Style Sheets as terrorism?  Are you
saying that you are threatening the world with abuse of Style Sheets if
you don't get your HTML elements?  Or are you under the belief that
Style Sheets will harm your readers with browsers that don't support
them?

John



John Pozadzides    W e b  D e s i g n  G r o u p
john@htmlhelp.com       http://www.htmlhelp.com/
       http://www.htmlhelp.com/~john/
Received on Thursday, 10 April 1997 14:02:39 GMT

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