W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-math@w3.org > April 2006

RE: pages with MathML

From: <juanrgonzaleza@canonicalscience.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 07:07:41 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <3380.>
To: <www-math@w3.org>

Romeo Anghelache wrote:
>> juanrgonzaleza@canonicalscience.com wrote:


>> i ask again is above code you mean by "semantic"?
> finally, a good question, if it's not rhetorical.
> there are several layers of semantics being addressed:
> 1. a document with some structure is generated from the TeX source (a
> list of sections, one of which containing administrative metadata:
> author, date, abstract etc., and one of which is the bibliography, the
> rest of the sections contain references and MathML islands in a pool of
> text covered with presentation hints).
> The structure generated by Hermes mirrors the structure of the TeX
> source. At this level, by semantic I mean one can use a machine to
> process this resulting XML-structure (the XML file *directly* generated
> by Hermes): one can collect all the abstract and bibliographical info in
> a separate collection for a different kind of browsing, etc.
> If you look at the Tools/Page Info/General Tab in Firefox, or simply at
> the meta fields in the head section of the rendered xhtml, you'll find
> who's the author of the paper, an abstract of it, and who generated it
> (you only noticed the latter).

And Why?

Because you said that final document "was" the result of a personal
stylesheet and I simply was citing "Hermes at work" webpages and the
metadata of the article. The metadata clearly said that Hermes generated
the document. I cited generator and version. Rest of metadata was not
relevant for discussing that point.

> 2. if the author wants to use MathML-content, he can (using the Hermes
> semantic macros); and the result for the conversion will be as
> semantically deep (in terms of mathematics on the web) as MathML-content
> is. no author has bothered yet to use them, yet, and that's for a good
> reason, I think.

Yes I know that, I had read the "manual". Since I was not talking about
content MathML and since I saw none sample of Content MathML generated by
Hermes I simply focused in presentation MathML.

> 3. if the author is not present/doesn't care, his legacy TeX article can
> still be rendered, by converting it with Hermes, or a similar tool, on
> the screen as XHTML+Presentation-MathML+Unicode, in this case the fact
> that a reader can reuse a matrix (by copy/pasting it in a MathML-aware
> application) is all the semantics one can care about in e-publishing
> mathematics, beside the metadata at point 1. The semantics here is to
> render mathematical things as close as possible to the source, using
> maximal information from the source.

Impressive concept of semantic!

But still you want not or cannot recognize that final result is rather
poor for one would wait for a first-class XHTML+MathML approach. Let me
remember you that nobody critiqued the HERMES program (not your
capabilities as programer) that we are critizing are the documents that
are being served in the Internet. Or to be clearer: how MathML is being
used in practice.

Moreover, since you are not really replied the question I did several
times, let me ask it again (you simply may reply "yes" or "no"). Do you
call semantic next code?







<p class="abstract">


<span class="fn"> </span><span class="fb">Abstract </span><span
class="fn">We review the present status of black hole thermodynamics. Our
review includes discussion of classical black hole thermodynamics, Hawking

radiation from black holes, the generalized second law, and the issue

of entropy bounds. A brief survey also is given of approaches to the

calculation of black hole entropy. We conclude with a discussion of

some unresolved open issues. </span>






>> And do you consider correct the encoding authors or dates as headings of
>> level 3? It is rather incompatible with w3c focus of last decade. The w3c
>> has done a big effort on recommend splitting of content from presentation.
>> The use of presentational tags as <i> instead of <em> is not encouraged
>> since years ago. The encoding of authors or dates as headings of level 3
>> is still poor!
> You're generating noise again. This is not about MathML, I use h3 as a
> shortcut to make something bold, centered and not too big; you may use
> it for semantics; do you think anybody gives a dime on our formatting
> preferences?
> The document you should have talked about, and you didn't because you're
> in a hurry to cover it all, is the document Hermes is generating.

No, it is not noise; you introduced the February topic again in one of
your previous message and I was forced to explain I did mean because you
were misguided.

About your use of <h3> for encoding authors or dates, thanks by recognize
I already know, the "Living" documents listed at "Hermes at work" are
using structural markup to create presentational effects. But that is just
plain wrong; it is poor that use of old deprecated font tags!!

This just confirms my previous belief that under the hype of semantic
oriented documents, and the use of last technologies we are doing poor
that using the old HTML of decades ago.

> You
> never seen one, right? It should be generated according to the
> instructions in the user manual.

I can say I have seen. I saw documents listed in *Hermes at work* page.
Documents that contain metadata

<meta name="generator" content="Hermes, version 0.9.4 2005-11-19, license
GNU GPL, description http://hermes.roua.org/"/>

If the generator of final document is not HERMES, then the error is in
your misuse of the meta-data field. Please do not put your errors to

If you want avoid misunderstanding in a future, I recommend you eliminate
the title of page *Hermes at work* and also recommend you modify the
metadata field

> Here's a glimpse into that XML file:
> <title><ph f="cmr17">Loop Quantum Gravity</ph></title>
> <author>
> <name><ph f="cmr12">Carlo Rrrrrr</ph></name>
> <affiliation>
> <ph f="cmr12">Department of Physics and Astronomy University of Ppppp,
> PP NNNN, UUU</ph>
> </affiliation>
> <email>rrrr@rrrrr.edu</email>
> <vaddress>http://www.example.edu/~rrrr</vaddress>
> </author>
> <date><ph f="cmr12">1998-01-26</ph></date>
> It contains some other harmless garbage but this is the useful semantic
> structure in it.

And then you are curiously forgetting that I NEWER reviewed the "source"
or "raw file" (would be stupid do that, is not?). I reviewed was the real
document is being served on the Internet.

Document reviewed is the real document that is wrong, structurally
invalid, and not accessible.

Document reviewed is the real document that people are downloading,
searching, reading, storing in their computers, etc.

Maybe, you are obtaining difficulties for understanding this point, but if
I am reviewing the document


You would focus on THAT document containing the errors I am citing.
Because (I remark by n-th time) I am not reviewing your fascinating
capabilities as programmer. I am reviewing the REAL documents containing
MATHML are being SERVED in the Internet.

But you are ignoring the MathML code... It is not so strange since you are
happy with the use of <h3> for encoding authors or dates.

> So, quit quoting from "Learn HTML in 24 hours". You just don't know what
> you're talking about.
>> 1) The incorrect encoding continues there, and if it is not error of
>> HERMES -just of the "personal stylesheet"- the final code is being served
>> to final users (including people with disabilities) continues being wrong.
> you didn't read the one page user manual:
> quote from http://hermes.roua.org/ :
> the Hermes stylesheet, pub.xslt, is used in this transformation, but you
> can use your own for different results/looks.

Reply is contained in previous messages and this own.

> unquote
> Therefore your comments around this stylesheet is an abuse to this list.

Of course than not! I am not commenting stylesheets, and your emphasis on
deviate debate outside of important points only can mean one thing.

This thread is about pages|documents with MathML, and documents I cited
are documents misusing both XHTML and MathML.

The XHTML code of documents cited is completely wrong with empty
paragraphs for layout, encoding dates and authors with <h3>, etc.

The MathML code of documents cited

[for instance http://hermes.aei.mpg.de/1998/3/article.xhtml]

is also very wrong, except in the most trivial cases such as subindices or
fractions. Text has been simulated with collections of <mi>; tensors are
simulated via nested sub and sup; something as simple as (ds)^2 is being
served as d(s)^2, integrals or differential equations are not accessible,
and structure of markup is very defficient (probably offering errors in
liquid layouts). There exist a lot of redundant MathML code, and probably
I am now forgetting crucial points.

It is clear that the accessibility of MathML contained in those modern
documents listed in "Hermes at work" -I cited- is poor than using old GIF
(+alt) model!!

Searching is also wrong. I am searching (ds)^2, the engine would ignore
"Hermes at work" documents containing real d(s)^2 code.

The visual rendering of the equation containing "the Planck" is poor that
using HTML 3.2 for that.

In short, "Living" is serving MathML as a kind of verbose (and often
wrong) version of the old HTML.

>> 2) One of reasons that I notice authors when I am critizing/revieving
>> their work is that if I am wrong they can correct me. You did not reply
>> then and now are replying in a hard way here.
> You already owe me a couple of bucks for the time I wasted reading some
> of your messages and visiting your website.
>> 3) Was I wrong?
> Yes. You knew everything already; and in my experience, guys who
> know-it-all don't do, or say, anything that matters.

Do you really think that this attitude will eliminate the errors of the
documents are being served on the Internet. XML technology is not so
powerful and computers are not so intelligent.

I carefully recommend you try to understand I wrote in Canonical Science
Today and here before being so ravenous. I am not interested in personal

> [..]
>> and since I am curious, I see the source code once my browser opens the
>> document and from the <head> section I extract:
>> <meta name="generator" content="Hermes, version 0.9.4 2005-11-19, license
>> GNU GPL, description http://hermes.roua.org/"/>
>> therefore, I can perfectly to say on Canonical Science Today
>> [http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2006/02/choosing-notationsyntax-for-canonmath.html]
>> that document, where layout is done with <p></p>, authors or dates are
>> encoded as <h3>, and the structure of abstract is discussible, ***was
>> generated by HERMES***. In fact, I wrote even the version of HERMES
>> software generated the documents I was reviewing
> the XML file which was the source of the XSLT transformation the result
> of which you are looking at, is Hermes.
> you don't want me to write that in every rendered article now do you?
> it's enough I provided an URL for the *curious* to understand what's
> going on.
>> <quote>
>> [See The Thermodynamics of Black Holes by Robert M. Wald in Living Reviews
>> in Relativity generated with Hermes, version 0.9.4 2005-11-19]
>> </quote>
>> Therefore, if there was some error it was not from my part. Either that
>> obtuse code was generated by Hermes or the metadata of document I cited is
>> wrong.
> You didn't cite the metadata, you (mis)interpreted it.

You continue attempting to put your errors to others. This was already
replied two or three times. I add nothing new except next excerpt from


<META name generator>


Defines the name of the program which created the web document. This is
used for reference purposes only and does not affect search engine

<meta name="Generator" content="text">
	Text is the name of the program. This can be any text string.


<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0">

    This example indicates that the document was created in Microsoft
Frontpage 4.0.

This is also the role of the future "generator" attribute in XHTML 2.0


    Identifies the software used to generate the resource.

Since that the ***metadata*** on the documents I cited and reviewed was

<meta name="generator" content="Hermes, version 0.9.4 2005-11-19, license
GNU GPL, description http://hermes.roua.org/"/>

I said that document had been created with HERMES version 0.9.4. I said
nothing wrong but you are blinded!

If you do not know the usage of meta information, then that cannot be an
error attributed to me.

Since you are more interested in noisy debate and personal attack rather
than in discussion of important points (misuse of MathML of documents are
cited in "Hermes at work") I will not reply to you more.


Juan R.

Received on Sunday, 16 April 2006 14:07:53 UTC

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