W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-math@w3.org > April 2006

[Re: pages with MathML]

From: Romeo Anghelache <aldraku@aei.mpg.de>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:50:58 +0300
Message-ID: <44414092.2070108@aei.mpg.de>
To: www-math@w3.org

> juanrgonzaleza@canonicalscience.com wrote:
> 
> Let me introduce the heading of the single page you are citing
> 
> <quote>
> Hermes - a semantic XML+MathML+Unicode e-publishing/self-archiving tool
> for LaTeX authored scientific articles
> </quote>
> 
> with Last update on Friday, March 31, 2006  by Romeo Anghelache.
> 
> i ask again is above code you mean by "semantic"?

finally, a good question, if it's not rhetorical.

there are several layers of semantics being addressed:

1. a document with some structure is generated from the TeX source (a
list of sections, one of which containing administrative metadata:
author, date, abstract etc., and one of which is the bibliography, the
rest of the sections contain references and MathML islands in a pool of
text covered with presentation hints).

The structure generated by Hermes mirrors the structure of the TeX
source. At this level, by semantic I mean one can use a machine to
process this resulting XML-structure (the XML file *directly* generated
by Hermes): one can collect all the abstract and bibliographical info in
a separate collection for a different kind of browsing, etc.

If you look at the Tools/Page Info/General Tab in Firefox, or simply at
the meta fields in the head section of the rendered xhtml, you'll find
who's the author of the paper, an abstract of it, and who generated it
(you only noticed the latter).

2. if the author wants to use MathML-content, he can (using the Hermes
semantic macros); and the result for the conversion will be as
semantically deep (in terms of mathematics on the web) as MathML-content
is. no author has bothered yet to use them, yet, and that's for a good
reason, I think.

3. if the author is not present/doesn't care, his legacy TeX article can
still be rendered, by converting it with Hermes, or a similar tool, on
the screen as XHTML+Presentation-MathML+Unicode, in this case the fact
that a reader can reuse a matrix (by copy/pasting it in a MathML-aware
application) is all the semantics one can care about in e-publishing
mathematics, beside the metadata at point 1. The semantics here is to
render mathematical things as close as possible to the source, using
maximal information from the source.

> 
>> The document generated by Hermes is a raw XML file (the reference
>> document, or the library document). What you are talking about here is
>> the result of a stylesheet transformation, a stylesheet that I wrote
>> just to put the things on screen.
>> The only semantics on the screen I'm concerned about is the looks of it,
>> and the fact that you can copy/paste the math in your math application.
>> The h3 you're complaining about may have been class="date", but it has
>> its unintentional usefulness: it catches the know-it-all guys.
> 
> And do you consider correct the encoding authors or dates as headings of
> level 3? It is rather incompatible with w3c focus of last decade. The w3c
> has done a big effort on recommend splitting of content from presentation.
> The use of presentational tags as <i> instead of <em> is not encouraged
> since years ago. The encoding of authors or dates as headings of level 3
> is still poor!
> 

You're generating noise again. This is not about MathML, I use h3 as a
shortcut to make something bold, centered and not too big; you may use
it for semantics; do you think anybody gives a dime on our formatting
preferences?
The document you should have talked about, and you didn't because you're
in a hurry to cover it all, is the document Hermes is generating. You
never seen one, right? It should be generated according to the
instructions in the user manual.

Here's a glimpse into that XML file:
<title><ph f="cmr17">Loop Quantum Gravity</ph></title>
<author>
<name><ph f="cmr12">Carlo Rrrrrr</ph></name>
<affiliation>
<ph f="cmr12">Department of Physics and Astronomy University of Ppppp,
PP NNNN, UUU</ph>
</affiliation>
<email>rrrr@rrrrr.edu</email>
<vaddress>http://www.example.edu/~rrrr</vaddress>
</author>
<date><ph f="cmr12">1998-01-26</ph></date>

It contains some other harmless garbage but this is the useful semantic
structure in it.

So, quit quoting from "Learn HTML in 24 hours". You just don't know what
you're talking about.


> 1) The incorrect encoding continues there, and if it is not error of
> HERMES -just of the "personal stylesheet"- the final code is being served
> to final users (including people with disabilities) continues being wrong.
> 

you didn't read the one page user manual:
quote from http://hermes.roua.org/ :

the Hermes stylesheet, pub.xslt, is used in this transformation, but you
can use your own for different results/looks.

unquote

Therefore your comments around this stylesheet is an abuse to this list.

> 2) One of reasons that I notice authors when I am critizing/revieving
> their work is that if I am wrong they can correct me. You did not reply
> then and now are replying in a hard way here.

You already owe me a couple of bucks for the time I wasted reading some
of your messages and visiting your website.

> 
> 3) Was I wrong?
> 

Yes. You knew everything already; and in my experience, guys who
know-it-all don't do, or say, anything that matters.

[..]
> and since I am curious, I see the source code once my browser opens the
> document and from the <head> section I extract:
> 
> 
> <meta name="generator" content="Hermes, version 0.9.4 2005-11-19, license
> GNU GPL, description http://hermes.roua.org/"/>
> 
> 
> therefore, I can perfectly to say on Canonical Science Today
> 
> [http://canonicalscience.blogspot.com/2006/02/choosing-notationsyntax-for-canonmath.html]
> 
> that document, where layout is done with <p></p>, authors or dates are
> encoded as <h3>, and the structure of abstract is discussible, ***was
> generated by HERMES***. In fact, I wrote even the version of HERMES
> software generated the documents I was reviewing

the XML file which was the source of the XSLT transformation the result
of which you are looking at, is Hermes.
you don't want me to write that in every rendered article now do you?
it's enough I provided an URL for the *curious* to understand what's
going on.

> 
> <quote>
> [See The Thermodynamics of Black Holes by Robert M. Wald in Living Reviews
> in Relativity generated with Hermes, version 0.9.4 2005-11-19]
> </quote>
> 
> Therefore, if there was some error it was not from my part. Either that
> obtuse code was generated by Hermes or the metadata of document I cited is
> wrong.

You didn't cite the metadata, you (mis)interpreted it.

> I sincerely think that anyone would obtain the same conclusion I obtained
> that Hermes -proclaimed semantic e-publishing/self-archiving tool- is
> encoding authors or dates as headings of level 3 and use <p></p> for
> layouts.
> 
> Both Hermes pages I cited are updated by a so-called Romeo Anghelache
> (i.e. you).
> 

I got it, the so-called :))

> 
> Well, you demand courtesy but you are assuming (twice) that I didnít read
> manual, claiming off-topic comments and adding another personal attacks.
> 
> I am ignoring any personal attack from you. This thread is about pages
> containing MathML and I am proving with real examples that mathML code is
> being served in that pages is wrong (therefore is on-topic).
> 
> 1) I never said that HERMES was generating content MathML.

Whatever.

> 
> Please do not worry if we are rejecting HERMES project and MathML. They do
> not fit our needs!

I never said I do :))
I'm happy for your choice.
I wasted too much time with your nonsensical mix.

cheers,
romeo
Received on Saturday, 15 April 2006 18:52:56 GMT

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