W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-math@w3.org > April 2006

Re: pages with MathML

From: Romeo Anghelache <aldraku@aei.mpg.de>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 19:47:52 +0300
Message-ID: <443FD238.5060904@aei.mpg.de>
To: www-math@w3.org

juanrgonzaleza@canonicalscience.com wrote:
> Romeo Anghelache,
> It is rather surprising that one can claim that HERMES is generating
> semantic content, when articles generated from HERMES looks like
> --------------------- REAL CODE
> <…>
> <p>
> </p>
> <h3>2001-07-09</h3>
> <p>
> </p>
> <p class="abstract">
> <p>
> <span class="fn"> </span><span class="fb">Abstract </span><span
> class="fn">We review the present status of black hole thermodynamics. Our

> some unresolved open issues. </span>
> </p>
> </p>
> <p>
> <…>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Is the use of empty paragraphs for simulating layouts, headings of level 3
> for encoding dates, and others points you mean by “semantic”?

you didn't read the user manual, a single page, at  http://hermes.roua.org/

The document generated by Hermes is a raw XML file (the reference 
document, or the library document). What you are talking about here is 
the result of a stylesheet transformation, a stylesheet that I wrote 
just to put the things on screen.
The only semantics on the screen I'm concerned about is the looks of it, 
and the fact that you can copy/paste the math in your math application.
The h3 you're complaining about may have been class="date", but it has 
its unintentional usefulness: it catches the know-it-all guys.

> Do you name “semantic” the next encoding generated by HERMES
> <h3><a href="http://surubi.fis.uncor.edu/reula">Oscar A. Reula</a></h3>?
> Uff! Author encoded as heading of the document!

no I don't. my guess is you've just heard a voice.

> Moreover, the mathematical code presents in the articles generated by
> Hermes are not verifying accessibility, structure is far from good, and
> several equations are rendered via “tricks”.
> For example, in “Hyperbolic methods for Einstein’s Equations”
> [http://hermes.aei.mpg.de/1998/3/article.xhtml]
> one reads (before equation 2):
> \epsilon _{abcd} is the Levi-Civita tensor corresponding to the physical
> metric
> The underlying math is not encoded via tensors but
> <math xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML">
> <msub>
>  <mrow>
>   <mi>&epsilon;</mi>
>  </mrow>
>  <mrow>
>   <mi>a</mi>
>   <mi>b</mi>
>   <mi>c</mi>
>   <mi>d</mi>
>  </mrow>
> </msub>
> </math>

again, you didn't read the user manual.
at least have the courtesy to read and understand the minimal info 
before bugging this list with off-topic comments.

I'll spell it to you again,
quote from http://hermes.roua.org/ :

Of MathML, only MathML-presentation is generated if Hermes is used to 
translate legacy LaTeX files (here, by legacy LaTeX files I mean sources 
which were not edited with semantic vocabularies in mind) without manual 
intervention on the source.


> <span class="fi"> </span><span class="fn">is the Levi-Civita tensor
> corresponding to the physical metric, </span>
> Sorry, but I cannot call that "good code", because the Tensor is being
> rendered via a ***visual*** forcing of subscripts instead via multiscript
> tag of MathML 2.0

very well, implement a tool which does it (google for Levi-Civita, find 
out it's a tensor, and the first or n-th symbol, or group of symbols, 
should be interpreted as a tensor).
but you already proved MathML sucks all-together, why bother?

I didn't ask you to call it "good code", really.

> And what about the redundancy of MathML ½ in equation 2? and what about
> the "terrorific" code of equation 3?
> Do you name “semantic” content to encoding of “integral on s” like
> <mo>&#8747;</mo><mi>d</mi><mi>s</mi>?
> (equation 10 of [http://hermes.aei.mpg.de/1998/1/article.xhtml])

Ok. The only wrong thing here is <mi>d</mi>. Got it?
No? Uff. It's mathml presentation, and d is an operator so it should be 
surrounded by <mo>d</mo>.
This can be fixed, thanks for the unintentional pointing to a Hermes bug 
that I knew already.

> Do you consider correct the l_Planck of equation (24)? Do you know for
> what was <mtext> designed?

the l_Plank? I don't see any l_Plank there. check your spelling.
and yes, I know "for what was <mtext> designed" I even use it, but did 
you? Where? (please don't answer)

> And what about the equation (25) of
> [http://hermes.aei.mpg.de/2005/2/article.xhtml]?
> The Gamma *there* is a tensor, but is encoded as subscript ab and
> superscript j with several redundant mrows.

Again: Mathml-presentation doesn't know about tensors. So you're again 
confusing things badly.
The redundant <mrows> proved themselves necessary when the automatic 
conversion of legacy LaTeX files is an issue. You'll discover that when 
you'll convert articles yourself with the canonical science.

> Is that you call good semantic content?


MathML-presentation is a layer of semantics, albeit minimal, but solves 
a lot of issues with publishing math on the web, some of them being:
- converting the whole Living Reviews into XML+GIFs for mathematics, 
takes about 24 hours; converting it into XML+MathML-Presentation takes 
10 minutes;
- the resulting size is in favor to XML + MathML, especially when you 
have a lot of math;
- copy/pasting in your math application is a huge step forward from the 
GIF based math, or current math rendered in PDF.

These advantages make it worth the trouble of converting them even if 
there are temorary bugs left, or temporary incoveniences (which should 
be pointed out, thanks for all it's worth).

> And what about the metric equation just after the section 2.1? This is one
> of my favourites: accesibility, structure, "semantics", encoding, and
> rendering are all wrong.

your comments are all wrong, more or less.

> One find a line element ds^2. If my math is correct ds^2 = (ds)^2 but the
> code appear in the journal article generated via HERMES is
> <mi>d</mi>
> <msup>
>  <mrow>
>   <mi>s</mi>
>  </mrow>
>  <mrow>
>   <mn>2</mn>
>  </mrow>
> </msup>
> That is, d{s}^2 (or 2s ds), which is VERY different from (ds)^2 is
> supposed to be encoded via your "semantic" approach.

this is the TeX source of that expression: ds^{2}.
Let www-math know when you'll implement a tool which will be writing a 
different MathML-presentation from that source. But wait, that will be 
wrong, I can tell you that already.

> and all that even ignoring that one would type the differential using the
> MathML entity instead of identifier "d".

missing the point again. I'm tired of repeating myself:
there's no reliable way to infer what "d" means (identifier or operator) 
unless the author marks it up accordingly.

> Really do I need to continue writing samples of incorrect output you are
> serving to the world?

No you don't need.
You already proved you misunderstood the whole issue.
But thanks,  at least, for keeping your focus on technical matters this 

> I wrote to you in the past, because I was critizing HERMES approach and I
> consider that when one is critized, one would be informed for one can
> reply if consider needed.

Duly noted.

> That is also the reason I said that about NAG and New York Journal of
> Mathematics recently I consider that people would obtain opportunity to
> read I am writing and reply if consider needed.

I'm skeptical about their wish to learn about your insight, but go 
ahead, a casual reader of www-math wants to have some fun too.

> About the “canonical science site” I already said many occasions that site
> was experimental and very wrong in many points.
> Juan R.

ok. then do it right and then boast about it: it's minimal netizen courtesy.

Received on Friday, 14 April 2006 16:49:21 UTC

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