W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-international@w3.org > January to March 2013

[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2013-03-21

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:54:52 +0000
Message-ID: <514B658C.6070809@w3.org>
To: www International <www-international@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html



Text version follows:


  Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

21 Mar 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Mar/0022.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-irc

Attendees

    Present
           aharon, matial, aphillip, JcK, Richard, Norbert,
           fsasaki, fantasai

    Regrets
    Chair
           Addison Phillips

    Scribe
           aharon, fsasaki

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Agenda
          2. [6]Action Items
          3. [7]Info Share
          4. [8]WTITMA
          5. [9]caseless matching in css3 fonts
          6. [10]css3-text-decoration skipping spaces
          7. [11]language ranges with multiple subtags
          8. [12]AOB?
      * [13]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

Agenda

Action Items

    aphillip: action items
    ... did not get a lot of action items done

    <r12a> [14]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

      [14] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

    aharon: did not make any progress on bidi html5 improvements
    note

    Norbert: action 149 in about 3 weeks

    ahphillip: action 150 becoming pressing, but have not had
    chance

    aphillip: no progress on action 170

    richard: document is pretty much ready for review

    aphillip: no progress on 174
    ... no progress on 183
    ... will talk about 194

    <aphillip> close ACTION-195

    <trackbot> Closed ACTION-195 Send Richard notes about IE
    behaviour wrt direction.

    aharon: sent notes on IE for action 195 today

    richard: no chance to get to action 196

Info Share

    richard: mlw workshop went well, well done Felix and colleagues

    <fsasaki> kudos to r12a for *his* work! not only in the
    previous workshops but also in rome

    richard: breakout to discuss personal names, mark davis was
    there...

    how to handle personal names, ontologies

    aphillip: unicode conference call for papers is now

WTITMA

    aphillip: is this (UTC 1600) a good time?

    richard: until when?

    aphillip: indefinitely

    matial: not good for me after summer time comes in

    <aphillip> mati: -1, prefer same wall time rather than same utc
    time

    <aphillip> richard: 1500 utc

    richard: prefer same wall time

    <fsasaki> +1

    <fsasaki> actually, both fine by me

    aphillip: resolved to move to 1500

    <aphillip> ACTION: addison: move meeting to 1500 utc following
    change to summer time [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-197 - Move meeting to 1500 utc
    following change to summer time [on Addison Phillips - due
    2013-03-28].

    <aphillip> ... for first meeting in april

    aphillip: move to 1500 not next week but the following week

caseless matching in css3 fonts

    <aphillip>
    [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2013J
    anMar/0347.html

      [16] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2013JanMar/0347.html

    aphillip: c+s may not match

    <aphillip> example: a font with a german name such as heiƟ
    wouldn't match HEISS because C+S case fold is only "heis"

    aphillip: the concern is that you want your case-folded names
    to match the other token, and both have to be case-folded the
    same way...

    you have to know that you have to allocate a little more
    storage for the case-folded version...

    <fantasai> fantasai: Is the concern that the casefld will be
    incorrectly implemented, or that it won't match when correctly
    implemented?

    a little spurios, since other factors can change the length
    anyway

    JcK; worrying about this particular case "borders on the
    irrational"

    <fantasai> Norbert quoting Jonathan: should require
    normalization if doing casefold

    <fantasai> ?: Trying to do casefold without normalization is
    all sorts of trouble.

    <fantasai> JcK: Maybe right rule is to normalize and casefold
    for comparison, even if the string is not normalized itself

    JcK: maybe the right rule is to normalize around case folds

    <fantasai> ?: A little more complicated, but certainly more
    reliable

    <fantasai> aphillip: Would be remarkable use of normalization
    simply because not used anywhere else

    <fantasai> JcK: Should either not casefold at all or normalize
    and casefold

    <fantasai> aphillip: Don't think we want to change
    recommendation of which casefold to use

    <fantasai> aphillip: Second quesiton is whether to normalize

    <fantasai> aphillip: efficiency more problematic for
    normalization than casefolding

    <fantasai> aphillip: We've brought it up with Selectors, other
    things, een told enough times we're not going to get
    normalization

    fantasai: in all other cases, you had to have normalization
    span the entire platform
    ... not sure that this can even been done
    ... in this particular case, it's not about interaction of css
    with some other Web technology but about interaction of CSS
    with font files via intermediary agent of OS font APIs

    you could require normaliza and case fold, and it would have no
    effect on the rest of platform

    <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki

    addison: conclusions?
    ... need to understand the rules for common font format
    ... there seem to be limitations

    fantasai: normalization and case folding makes most sense to me
    ... in this particular case

    addison: nothing against including normalization
    ... objections against case folding should go away too

    jck: thinking of the argument for normalization we had for IDN
    ... These strings are very short, I don't see an efficiency
    problem

    addison: so probably both normalization and case folding are
    the right thing to do
    ... there should be a special note saying here is the limited
    case where we are having normalization

    <JcK> In particular, these are comparisons for very short
    strings, not operations on very large blocks of text. For such
    short strings, The efficiency loss is trivial and the
    comparisons will work much more predictably

    <aphillip> ACTION: addison: write back to CSS-fonts about
    casefolding and normalization, allowing both with health
    warning (see minutes) [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-198 - Write back to CSS-fonts about
    casefolding and normalization, allowing both with health
    warning (see minutes) [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-28].

css3-text-decoration skipping spaces

    <aphillip>
    [18]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013M
    ar/0023.html

      [18] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Mar/0023.html

    addison: this is about space skip, text decoration for
    underlining
    ... above link is summary of what I got back from them
    ... one of discussion topics: some langauges don't use spaces
    ... so if you want to (scribe missed)

    fantasai: reading comment esp. from markus
    ... propose to do something simple
    ... do something for languages that have spaces
    ... if the language has no spaces, you don't want to create a
    gap
    ... one thing I didn't understand: how do I specifiy other than
    linking to CLDR query page?

    addison: defined elsewhere, like the regex one

    fantasai: does the regex include entire Z category?

    norbert: javascript has its own ws category

    <aphillip> ACTION: addison: seek clarification on
    [:Whitespace:] [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-199 - Seek clarification on
    [:Whitespace:] [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-28].

    fantasai: proposal is to skip all characters in unicode
    category z

    addison: minus the vertical white space

    fantasai: the word separater characters are:

    <fantasai> space (U+0020), the no-break space (U+00A0), the
    Ethiopic word space (U+1361), the Aegean word separators
    (U+10100,U+10101), the Ugaritic word divider (U+1039F), and the
    Phoenician Word Separator (U+1091F)

    <fantasai> plus whatever is regex White_Space

    fantasai: that is the current proposal
    ... we can skip e.g. over blank
    ... do we also skip over visible spaces like U+1361?

    richard: skipping over blank might be an issue too

    addison: there are joining items in punctuation you might not
    want to skip either

    norbert: e.g. within numbers

    <aphillip> foo<a0>:

    <aphillip> 1<a0>000

    discussion on underlining in Ethopian word spaces

    <Norbert> [20]http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr44/#White_Space

      [20] http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr44/#White_Space

    <r12a> fantasai, do you know that you just dropped off the
    call?

    <fantasai> "conference is restricted" :/

    <matial> me too

    <fantasai> So any conclusions on text-decoration-skip?

    <fantasai> The definition I have is the one above

    <aphillip> I will circle back to unicore

    <fantasai> the open question is what to do with the visible
    word separators

    <aphillip> and we will take up again next week

    <fantasai> ok

    <aphillip> yep

language ranges with multiple subtags

    <aphillip> norbert: looking for end-to-end language negotiation
    example that uses script codes

    <aphillip> ... or other subtags defined by bcp 47

    <aphillip> richard we have some

    <r12a>
    [21]http://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/characters

      [21] http://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/characters

    <r12a> look at the chinese version

    <aphillip> norbert: please send examples to list

    <aphillip> richard: see above

AOB?

    <r12a>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/characters.
    zh-hant.php?changelang=zh-hant

      [22] 
http://www.w3.org/International/getting-started/characters.zh-hant.php?changelang=zh-hant

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: addison: move meeting to 1500 utc following
    change to summer time [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: addison: seek clarification on [:Whitespace:]
    [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: addison: write back to CSS-fonts about
    casefolding and normalization, allowing both with health
    warning (see minutes) [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/21-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]






-- 
Richard Ishida, W3C
http://rishida.net/
Received on Thursday, 21 March 2013 19:55:16 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Thursday, 21 March 2013 19:55:16 GMT