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RE: [css3-lists] Remaining feedback on the module

From: Koji Ishii <kojiishi@gluesoft.co.jp>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 00:26:31 -0400
To: Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com>, www-style list <www-style@w3.org>
CC: WWW International <www-international@w3.org>, "public-i18n-core@w3.org" <public-i18n-core@w3.org>
Message-ID: <A592E245B36A8949BDB0A302B375FB4E0AC2874C85@MAILR001.mail.lan>
Thank you for updating the ED, Tab. Here're some feedbacks from me.

** 4.3.4. The Japanese "spoken-out" counter styles
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/#japanese-counter-styles


* Digit 0 is U+3007, not U+96F6 for both "japanese-informal" and "japanese-financial".


** 13. Appendix A: Required Predefined Counter Styles
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/#ua-stylesheet


* The "suffix" property for "cjk-decimal" and "fullwidth-decimal" is U+3001. Japanese uses U+3001 or U+FF0E, and Chinese uses U+3001, U+FF0C, or U+FF0E (if I understand correctly), so the choices are U+3001 or U+FF0E. I would prefer U+3001. I don't know which Chinese people prefers though.

* Are we dropping "cjk-ideographic" which was in CSS 2.0? It would be ideal if the value can map to "*-informal" depending on language tag.

* I can't find CJK predefined counter styles in this section. Is this because you haven't determined how to define the "type" property for these styles? I think we have to add values like "chinese" or "japenese" here because their algorithms are different. I understand some people do not like scripts/language names appearing as value names, but I don't know what else options we have. Other possibilities I can think of are:
- "cjk-japanese", "cjk-simp-chinese", etc.: no differences?
- make the value name descriptive for each algorithm, like "cjk-remove-all-zero-and...": I think this is preferred method in CSS, but I don't know if we can come up with good names in this way.


> 8. Should I allow custom negative signs to be defined?  Right now all
> the numeric styles just use hyphen-minus.  Do any languages require a
> different negative sign?

Yes, please. Fullwidth counter styles want to use U+FF0D FULLWIDTH HYPHEN-MINUS instead. This is not only for visual consistency but also helps them look better in vertical text flow.

I'd also like to use a string of four characters ("マイナス", U+30DE, U+30A4, U+30CA, U+30B9, meaning "minus" in Japanese) for Japanese counter styles and relax the restriction "not defined for negative numbers". It's true that there's no formal way to describe negative numbers in ideographic number styles, but displaying positive numbers in ideographic and negative numbers in Arabic digits doesn't look good. Some people said we could use "▲" U+25B2, but I think it's too specific to financial world.


Regards,
Koji

-----Original Message-----
From: www-style-request@w3.org [mailto:www-style-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Tab Atkins Jr.
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 8:56 AM
To: www-style list
Cc: WWW International; public-i18n-core@w3.org
Subject: [css3-lists] Remaining feedback on the module

[Cross-posting between www-style, www-international, and
public-i18n-core. Please maintain all three of these lists in your
replies so we don't split the thread unnecessarily.]

When I started working on the CSS Lists Module
<http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists>, Hixie sent me the collected feedback
he'd received since 2002.  I've now processed the majority of that
feedback into spec edits, but I've got a couple of items still left,
which I'll summarize in this email.  If anyone has direct feedback on
these items, or can hook me up with people who might have relevant
feedback, please let me know!

I plan to cut a new Working Draft of the module at the end of this
month, so timely responses are appreciated.

1. I need to add some south asian systems.  The W3C's Indian i18n
group started responding about this a little while ago, but stopped
responding to my requests for clarification.  I need to restart talks
with them.

2. Greek styles are incomplete.  I've got a big chunk of greek
feedback that I haven't properly processed yet.  >_<

3. Are my current arabic/persian/urdu/etc systems sufficient, or are
there differences that I'm not currently capturing?

4. Apparently Koranic verse has a particular numbering scheme
different from general arabic/etc numbering.  Can anyone confirm this
and/or describe it for me?

5. I'm told there's a Hebrew alphabetic system: "This uses the Hebrew
letters without final
forms, i.e. U05D0-U05EA excluding U05DA, U05DD, U05DF, U05E3 and
U05E5".  I'd like some confirmation that this exists and is used,
along with some confirmation of the given definition.

6. Should I add more european alphabetic styles, like a german one
that includes umlauts?  I've heard conflicting feedback (from Hakon, I
believe) saying that I should instead drop the alternate european
styles that currently exist, as list numbering is typically done using
just the base english alphabet.

7. Are Aegean (U+10107-10133), Shavian (U+10450-1047F), and Ugaritic
(U+10380-1039D) things I should address?  I dunno if these are living
or dead scripts.

8. Should I allow custom negative signs to be defined?  Right now all
the numeric styles just use hyphen-minus.  Do any languages require a
different negative sign?

9. Apparently, at least some hebrew books number their pages with a
simpler additive system which just uses the the characters associated
with 1-9, 10-90, and 100-400, then just repeats TAV (the character for
400) repeatedly for larger numbers (so 1100 would be תתש, rather than
א׳ק).  Can I switch to *just* this system (allowing me to eliminate
the special definition of Hebrew in favor of a simple @counter-style
rule), or is there still a good case for the current definition?

~TJ

Received on Wednesday, 20 April 2011 04:31:37 GMT

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