I thought that the CSS property setting of unicode-bidi="normal" had the effect of saying that the normal Unicode bidi rules were applied to text, and that the direction property text was effectively ignored (or treated as if it were what is being suggested as "auto").

To force a text direction in CSS, you must set direction and set the unicode-bidi property to "embed" or "override".



At 2007.03.14-09:08(-0700), Mark Davis wrote:
The key issue is when users are keying in text in a text entry box. It is quite common with websites in a RTL language for people to be entering in basically LTR text; and also not uncommon for those users to make use of LTR websites (like google.com), and enter in RTL text, say to search for. If the text entry box is in the "wrong" direction for the text, it is very hard to read and edit. By having an "auto" option that uses the Unicode BIDI algorithm's default for setting the text direction (keying off the first strong direction character of each paragraph), it makes it much easier for users to read and edit the text that they are typing in.

Mark

On 3/14/07, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org> wrote:
Mark, Simon,

Could you put a few more words around this, explaining why it is needed and how you think it could be addressed?  Then we can discuss the proposal in the i18n core WG and, if agreed, forward to CSS and any other WGs for consideration.

Cheers,
RI

PS: Note that w3c-i18n-ig@w3 is no longer in use.  If you are in the Core WG, you can use public-i18n-core@w3.

============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/




________________________________

        From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
        Sent: 11 March 2007 00:03
        To: Simon Montagu
        Cc: Jonathan Rosenne; www-international@w3.org; w3c-i18n-ig
        Subject: Re: Invalid relationship between bandwidth and spoken language


        that would be really good...


        On 3/10/07, Simon Montagu <smontagu@smontagu.org> wrote:

                I proposed some time ago adding a value "auto" to the css "direction"
                property to achieve this result.

                Mark Davis wrote:
                > Side issue: Interestingly, we've found that the ltr/rtl options are
                > insufficient. What people want in many cases in input fields is the
                > "default" algorithm, whereby even on a generally rtl page, the field
                > becomes ltr if the first strong character is ltr. Right now we are
                > simulating that with JavaScript (but it is a pain to do so).
                >
                > Mark
                >
                > On 3/9/07, *Jonathan Rosenne* <rosennej@qsm.co.il
                > <mailto: rosennej@qsm.co.il <mailto:rosennej@qsm.co.il> >> wrote:
                >
                >     This was a strange remark. For Arabic or Hebrew texts, little if any
                >     bidi markup is needed. dir="rtl" on the HTML will do the work. As
                >     the referenced article says, it is only needed for mixed content.
                >     And then there is no difference between LTR text contained in an RTL
                >     document and RTL text contained in an LTR document.
                >
                >     Jony
                >
                >         -----Original Message-----
                >         *From:* www-international-request@w3.org
                >         <mailto:www-international-request@w3.org <mailto:www-international-request@w3.org> > [mailto:
                >         www-international-request@w3.org
                >         <mailto:www-international-request@w3.org <mailto:www-international-request@w3.org > >] *On Behalf Of
                >         *Richard Ishida
                >         *Sent:* Friday, March 09, 2007 4:11 PM
                >         *To:* 'Rotan Hanrahan'
                >         *Cc:* www-international@w3.org <mailto:www-international@w3.org>
                >         *Subject:* RE: Invalid relationship between bandwidth and spoken
                >         language
                >
                >         Fixed.
                >
                >         RI
                >
                >         ============
                >         Richard Ishida
                >         Internationalization Lead
                >         W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
                >
                >         http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
                >         http://www.w3.org/International/
                >         http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
                >         http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
                >
                >
                >
                >             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >             *From:* www-international-request@w3.org
                >             <mailto:www-international-request@w3.org <mailto: www-international-request@w3.org> >
                >             [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org
                >             <mailto: www-international-request@w3.org <mailto:www-international-request@w3.org> >] *On Behalf Of
                >             *Rotan Hanrahan
                >             *Sent:* 09 March 2007 12:59
                >             *To:* www-international@w3.org <mailto: www-international@w3.org <mailto:www-international@w3.org> >
                >             *Subject:* Invalid relationship between bandwidth and spoken
                >             language
                >
                >             A colleague of mine, working in an Arabic speaking region of
                >             the world has pointed out a comment [1] regarding the use of
                >             bidi markup, in which it is stated:
                >
                >             "Removing them will significantly simplify the document, and
                >             reduce bandwidth - which may be an important consideration
                >             in countries where Arabic is spoken."
                >
                >             This line seems to suggest that there is an association
                >             between lack of adequate network bandwidth and the speaking
                >             of Arabic, an implication I am sure was not intended.
                >             Firstly, the effect of bidi markup on bandwidth consumption
                >             is negligible compared to the accompanying graphics.
                >             Secondly, any saving on payload size should be seen as
                >             universally beneficial, not just for countries characterised
                >             by the language they speak.
                >
                >             I suggest that the closing part of that statement ("in
                >             countries where Arabic is spoken") be removed from future
                >             revisions, as it is unnecessary and open to misinterpretation.
                >
                >             ---Rotan.
                >
                >             [1]
                >             _http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech- bidi.html#ri20030726.132037950_
                >
                >
                >         --
                >         No virus found in this outgoing message.
                >         Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                >         Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8 /714 - Release Date:
                >         08/03/2007 10:58
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > Mark






        --
        Mark


--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date: 13/03/2007 16:51





--
Mark


---Steve Deach
   sdeach@adobe.com