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Re: Invalid relationship between bandwidth and spoken language

From: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 09:08:40 -0700
Message-ID: <30b660a20703140908t48651cebm6f16e26915ff3faa@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>
Cc: "Simon Montagu" <smontagu@smontagu.org>, www-international@w3.org, w3c-i18n-ig <w3c-i18n-ig@w3.org>
The key issue is when users are keying in text in a text entry box. It is
quite common with websites in a RTL language for people to be entering in
basically LTR text; and also not uncommon for those users to make use of LTR
websites (like google.com), and enter in RTL text, say to search for. If the
text entry box is in the "wrong" direction for the text, it is very hard to
read and edit. By having an "auto" option that uses the Unicode BIDI
algorithm's default for setting the text direction (keying off the first
strong direction character of each paragraph), it makes it much easier for
users to read and edit the text that they are typing in.

Mark

On 3/14/07, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org> wrote:
>
> Mark, Simon,
>
> Could you put a few more words around this, explaining why it is needed
> and how you think it could be addressed?  Then we can discuss the proposal
> in the i18n core WG and, if agreed, forward to CSS and any other WGs for
> consideration.
>
> Cheers,
> RI
>
> PS: Note that w3c-i18n-ig@w3 is no longer in use.  If you are in the Core
> WG, you can use public-i18n-core@w3.
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
> http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>         From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:
> www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
>         Sent: 11 March 2007 00:03
>         To: Simon Montagu
>         Cc: Jonathan Rosenne; www-international@w3.org; w3c-i18n-ig
>         Subject: Re: Invalid relationship between bandwidth and spoken
> language
>
>
>         that would be really good...
>
>
>         On 3/10/07, Simon Montagu <smontagu@smontagu.org> wrote:
>
>                 I proposed some time ago adding a value "auto" to the css
> "direction"
>                 property to achieve this result.
>
>                 Mark Davis wrote:
>                 > Side issue: Interestingly, we've found that the ltr/rtl
> options are
>                 > insufficient. What people want in many cases in input
> fields is the
>                 > "default" algorithm, whereby even on a generally rtl
> page, the field
>                 > becomes ltr if the first strong character is ltr. Right
> now we are
>                 > simulating that with JavaScript (but it is a pain to do
> so).
>                 >
>                 > Mark
>                 >
>                 > On 3/9/07, *Jonathan Rosenne* <rosennej@qsm.co.il
>                 > <mailto: rosennej@qsm.co.il <mailto:rosennej@qsm.co.il>
> >> wrote:
>                 >
>                 >     This was a strange remark. For Arabic or Hebrew
> texts, little if any
>                 >     bidi markup is needed. dir="rtl" on the HTML will do
> the work. As
>                 >     the referenced article says, it is only needed for
> mixed content.
>                 >     And then there is no difference between LTR text
> contained in an RTL
>                 >     document and RTL text contained in an LTR document.
>                 >
>                 >     Jony
>                 >
>                 >         -----Original Message-----
>                 >         *From:* www-international-request@w3.org
>                 >         <mailto:www-international-request@w3.org<mailto:
> www-international-request@w3.org> > [mailto:
>                 >         www-international-request@w3.org
>                 >         <mailto:www-international-request@w3.org<mailto:
> www-international-request@w3.org> >] *On Behalf Of
>                 >         *Richard Ishida
>                 >         *Sent:* Friday, March 09, 2007 4:11 PM
>                 >         *To:* 'Rotan Hanrahan'
>                 >         *Cc:* www-international@w3.org <mailto:
> www-international@w3.org>
>                 >         *Subject:* RE: Invalid relationship between
> bandwidth and spoken
>                 >         language
>                 >
>                 >         Fixed.
>                 >
>                 >         RI
>                 >
>                 >         ============
>                 >         Richard Ishida
>                 >         Internationalization Lead
>                 >         W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>                 >
>                 >         http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
>                 >         http://www.w3.org/International/
>                 >         http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
>                 >         http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
>                 >
>                 >
>                 >
>                 >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                 >             *From:* www-international-request@w3.org
>                 >             <mailto:www-international-request@w3.org<mailto:
> www-international-request@w3.org> >
>                 >             [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org
>                 >             <mailto:www-international-request@w3.org<mailto:
> www-international-request@w3.org> >] *On Behalf Of
>                 >             *Rotan Hanrahan
>                 >             *Sent:* 09 March 2007 12:59
>                 >             *To:* www-international@w3.org <mailto:
> www-international@w3.org <mailto:www-international@w3.org> >
>                 >             *Subject:* Invalid relationship between
> bandwidth and spoken
>                 >             language
>                 >
>                 >             A colleague of mine, working in an Arabic
> speaking region of
>                 >             the world has pointed out a comment [1]
> regarding the use of
>                 >             bidi markup, in which it is stated:
>                 >
>                 >             "Removing them will significantly simplify
> the document, and
>                 >             reduce bandwidth - which may be an important
> consideration
>                 >             in countries where Arabic is spoken."
>                 >
>                 >             This line seems to suggest that there is an
> association
>                 >             between lack of adequate network bandwidth
> and the speaking
>                 >             of Arabic, an implication I am sure was not
> intended.
>                 >             Firstly, the effect of bidi markup on
> bandwidth consumption
>                 >             is negligible compared to the accompanying
> graphics.
>                 >             Secondly, any saving on payload size should
> be seen as
>                 >             universally beneficial, not just for
> countries characterised
>                 >             by the language they speak.
>                 >
>                 >             I suggest that the closing part of that
> statement ("in
>                 >             countries where Arabic is spoken") be
> removed from future
>                 >             revisions, as it is unnecessary and open to
> misinterpretation.
>                 >
>                 >             ---Rotan.
>                 >
>                 >             [1]
>                 >
> _http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-
> bidi.html#ri20030726.132037950_
>                 >
>                 >
>                 >         --
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>                 >         08/03/2007 10:58
>                 >
>                 >
>                 >
>                 >
>                 > --
>                 > Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>         --
>         Mark
>
>
> --
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> 13/03/2007 16:51
>
>
>


-- 
Mark
Received on Wednesday, 14 March 2007 16:08:57 GMT

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