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Re: People's names

From: Stephen Deach <sdeach@adobe.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 09:35:51 -0800
Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20060225093057.020513c0@namailhost.corp.adobe.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>, Misha Wolf <Misha.Wolf@reuters.com>
Cc: newsml-2@yahoogroups.com, www-international@w3.org

The use case here is in newspaper and magazine articles. One would like to 
be able to represent the name and title of a person on its first 
appearance, then use an abbreviated form (while still carrying the full 
info so the article can easily be edited).

Pseudo article:
   At the crime scene, San Jose Police Spokesperson Sgt. John Smith 
indicated ... .
   ... Smith went on to say ...



At 2006.02.24-08:47(-0800), Mark Davis wrote:

>I don't know what the scope of the source document is, but this seems like 
>a case of over-engineering, unless they are simply meant as "possible 
>examples". Most of these items would be useful only in extremely 
>specialized applications. For the vast majority of applications, a simple 
><name>Dr. Jonas T. Sulk III</name>field suffices, without trying to break 
>it up into pieces. Delving into surname, baptismal names, Mob nicknames 
>(Misha "Lefty" Wolf), Satanic-ritual aliases, and the like become hugely 
>complicated and difficult to manage. Beyond the simple name, the other 
>most useful one we've found is the <sortby>Sulk, Jonas T.</sortby>.
>
>The discussion of pronunciation seems somewhat muddled by not recognizing 
>that there are at least a couple of different goals. For most commercial 
>uses, a more typical, and more useful, expression would be what people 
>actually say their name sounds like. What people usually use in practice 
>depends on their source language; a very large number of people are 
>unfamiliar with IPA. For example, my wife's name is "Gundelfinger"; she is 
>very used to writing "sounds like gun-Dell-finger". For a text-to-speech 
>application, on the other hand, IPA would be clearly more suitable.
>
>Mark
>
>Misha Wolf wrote:
>>[This mail forms part of a thread on how to represent people's names in 
>>NewsML 2.  To join the newsml-2 list, go 
>>to    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newsml-2/
>>The NewsML 2 specs etc are available at:
>>    http://www.iptc.org/NAR/1.0/]
>>
>>In reponse to my previous mail, I received a number of comments along the 
>>lines of "I don't have a baptismal name".  For folks unfamiliar with the 
>>principles of NewsML 2, I'll briefly say that syntax such as:
>>
>>   <name scope="scp:baptismal">Norma Jeane Baker</name>
>>
>>means that the string "Norma Jeane Baker" is an instance of what NewsML 2 
>>might call a "name", that this name has what NewsML 2 might call a 
>>"scope" and that this scope has a value "scp:baptismal", which expands to (eg):
>>
>>    http://www.some.uri#baptismal
>>
>>where one might find a definition of "Baptismal name".
>>
>>It does *not* mean:
>>-  that everyone has a baptismal name
>>-  that the members of the NewsML 2 Architecture WP have baptismal    names
>>-  that the main use of NewsML 2 will be to exchange news about    people 
>>who have baptismal names
>>-  that the Moon is made of green cheese
>>
>>Every NewsML 2 producer is free to define their own terms or to adopt 
>>terms defined by anyone else.  For example;
>>
>>   <name>Theodor Herzl</name>
>>   <name scope="scp:hebrew">Binyamin Ze'ev Herzl</name>
>>
>>where "scp:hebrew" expands to (eg):
>>
>>    http://www.some.uri#hebrew
>>
>>or:
>>
>>   <name scope="foo:hebrew">Binyamin Ze'ev Herzl</name>
>>
>>where "foo:hebrew" expands to (eg):
>>
>>    http://www.someother.uri#hebrew
>>
>>The other main class of comments concerned xml:lang.  Yes, the proposed 
>>"name" element will accept xml:lang.
>>
>>I'll now return to the discussion of names.  I've pretty much left parts 
>>1 and 2 the same, but have substantially changed parts 3 and 4.
>>
>>I see four orthogonal axes (which can be combined as required): part, 
>>scope, formality, purpose.
>>
>>
>>1. Part of name (attribute name "part")
>>---------------------------------------
>>
>>Example values are: pt:given, pt:family, pt:full, pt:usual.
>>
>>Default value: If @part is omitted, pt:usual is assumed.
>>
>>An example is:
>>
>>   <name>Pablo Picasso</name>
>>   <name part="pt:given">Pablo</name>
>>   <name part="pt:family">Picasso</name>
>>   <name part="pt:full">Pablo Diego José Santiago Francisco de 
>> Paula     Juan Nepomuceno Crispín Crispiniano de los Remedios Cipriano 
>> de     la Santísima Trinidad Ruiz Picasso</name>
>>
>>
>>2. Social scope of name (attribute name "scope" or "role")
>>----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Example values are: scp:original, scp:baptismal, scp:hebrew, scp: 
>>married, scp:usual.
>>
>>Default value: If @scope is omitted, scp:usual is assumed.
>>
>>Examples are:
>>
>>   <name>Marilyn Monroe</name>
>>   <name scope="scp:original">Norma Jeane Mortenson</name>
>>   <name scope="scp:baptismal">Norma Jeane Baker</name>
>>   <name scope="scp:married">Norma Jeane Dougherty</name>
>>   <name scope="scp:work scp:usual">Marilyn Monroe</name>
>>
>>or:
>>
>>   <name>Theodor Herzl</name>
>>   <name scope="scp:hebrew">Binyamin Ze'ev Herzl</name>
>>
>>
>>3. Formality of style (attribute name "style" or "form")
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Example values are: st:formal, st:informal.
>>
>>There is no default value.
>>
>>Examples are:
>>
>>   <name style="st:formal">Zinédine Zidane</name>
>>   <name style="st:informal">Zizou</name>
>>
>>   <name style="st:formal">Michael Wolf</name>
>>   <name style="st:informal">Misha Wolf</name>
>>
>>There are more complex cases, which pose the question of how a nickname 
>>relates to the formality axis.  Is a nickname the most informal 
>>name?  Consider:
>>
>>   <name>John Fitzgerald Kennedy</name>
>>   <name>John F. Kennedy</name>
>>   <name>Jack Kennedy</name>
>>   <name>JFK</name>
>>
>>The first is clearly the most formal.  The second one is the second most 
>>formal.  I don't know which is more/less formal: the third or the 
>>fourth?  In any event, this suggests that formal-or-informal may not be 
>>sufficient, as there are levels of (in)formality.
>>
>>This is a similar case:
>>
>>   <name>George Walker Bush</name>
>>   <name>George W. Bush</name>
>>   <name>Dubya</name>
>>   <name>W</name>
>>
>>   [See http://www.georgewbushstore.com/200-8001.htm]
>>
>>though here the third and fourth names are probably equally informal.
>>
>>
>>4. Purpose (attribute name "purpose")
>>-------------------------------------
>>
>>Example values are: prp:pronounce, prp:sort.
>>
>>Examples are:
>>
>>   <name purpose="prp:sort">Zidane, Zinédine</name>
>>
>>   <name purpose="prp:pronounce" xml:lang="en">Pútin</name>
>>
>>Misha
>>
>>
>>To find out more about Reuters visit www.about.reuters.com
>>
>>Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, 
>>except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of 
>>Reuters Ltd.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>


---Steve Deach
    sdeach@adobe.com 
Received on Saturday, 25 February 2006 17:37:05 GMT

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