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Re: People's names

From: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:47:38 -0800
Message-ID: <43FF38AA.5050805@icu-project.org>
To: Misha Wolf <Misha.Wolf@reuters.com>
CC: newsml-2@yahoogroups.com, www-international@w3.org

I don't know what the scope of the source document is, but this seems 
like a case of over-engineering, unless they are simply meant as 
"possible examples". Most of these items would be useful only in 
extremely specialized applications. For the vast majority of 
applications, a simple <name>Dr. Jonas T. Sulk III</name>field suffices, 
without trying to break it up into pieces. Delving into surname, 
baptismal names, Mob nicknames (Misha "Lefty" Wolf), Satanic-ritual 
aliases, and the like become hugely complicated and difficult to manage. 
Beyond the simple name, the other most useful one we've found is the 
<sortby>Sulk, Jonas T.</sortby>.

The discussion of pronunciation seems somewhat muddled by not 
recognizing that there are at least a couple of different goals. For 
most commercial uses, a more typical, and more useful, expression would 
be what people actually say their name sounds like. What people usually 
use in practice depends on their source language; a very large number of 
people are unfamiliar with IPA. For example, my wife's name is 
"Gundelfinger"; she is very used to writing "sounds like 
gun-Dell-finger". For a text-to-speech application, on the other hand, 
IPA would be clearly more suitable.

Mark

Misha Wolf wrote:
> [This mail forms part of a thread on how to represent people's 
> names in NewsML 2.  To join the newsml-2 list, go to 
>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newsml-2/
> The NewsML 2 specs etc are available at:
>    http://www.iptc.org/NAR/1.0/]
>
> In reponse to my previous mail, I received a number of comments 
> along the lines of "I don't have a baptismal name".  For folks 
> unfamiliar with the principles of NewsML 2, I'll briefly say that 
> syntax such as:
>
>   <name scope="scp:baptismal">Norma Jeane Baker</name>
>
> means that the string "Norma Jeane Baker" is an instance of what 
> NewsML 2 might call a "name", that this name has what NewsML 2 might 
> call a "scope" and that this scope has a value "scp:baptismal", 
> which expands to (eg):
>
>    http://www.some.uri#baptismal
>
> where one might find a definition of "Baptismal name".
>
> It does *not* mean:
> -  that everyone has a baptismal name
> -  that the members of the NewsML 2 Architecture WP have baptismal 
>    names
> -  that the main use of NewsML 2 will be to exchange news about 
>    people who have baptismal names
> -  that the Moon is made of green cheese
>
> Every NewsML 2 producer is free to define their own terms or to 
> adopt terms defined by anyone else.  For example;
>
>   <name>Theodor Herzl</name>
>   <name scope="scp:hebrew">Binyamin Ze'ev Herzl</name>
>
> where "scp:hebrew" expands to (eg):
>
>    http://www.some.uri#hebrew
>
> or:
>
>   <name scope="foo:hebrew">Binyamin Ze'ev Herzl</name>
>
> where "foo:hebrew" expands to (eg):
>
>    http://www.someother.uri#hebrew
>
> The other main class of comments concerned xml:lang.  Yes, the 
> proposed "name" element will accept xml:lang.
>
> I'll now return to the discussion of names.  I've pretty much left 
> parts 1 and 2 the same, but have substantially changed parts 3 and 4.
>
> I see four orthogonal axes (which can be combined as required): 
> part, scope, formality, purpose.
>
>
> 1. Part of name (attribute name "part")
> ---------------------------------------
>
> Example values are: pt:given, pt:family, pt:full, pt:usual.
>
> Default value: If @part is omitted, pt:usual is assumed.
>
> An example is:
>
>   <name>Pablo Picasso</name>
>   <name part="pt:given">Pablo</name>
>   <name part="pt:family">Picasso</name>
>   <name part="pt:full">Pablo Diego José Santiago Francisco de Paula 
>     Juan Nepomuceno Crispín Crispiniano de los Remedios Cipriano de 
>     la Santísima Trinidad Ruiz Picasso</name>
>
>
> 2. Social scope of name (attribute name "scope" or "role")
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Example values are: scp:original, scp:baptismal, scp:hebrew, 
> scp: married, scp:usual.
>
> Default value: If @scope is omitted, scp:usual is assumed.
>
> Examples are:
>
>   <name>Marilyn Monroe</name>
>   <name scope="scp:original">Norma Jeane Mortenson</name>
>   <name scope="scp:baptismal">Norma Jeane Baker</name>
>   <name scope="scp:married">Norma Jeane Dougherty</name>
>   <name scope="scp:work scp:usual">Marilyn Monroe</name>
>
> or:
>
>   <name>Theodor Herzl</name>
>   <name scope="scp:hebrew">Binyamin Ze'ev Herzl</name>
>
>
> 3. Formality of style (attribute name "style" or "form")
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> Example values are: st:formal, st:informal.
>
> There is no default value.
>
> Examples are:
>
>   <name style="st:formal">Zinédine Zidane</name>
>   <name style="st:informal">Zizou</name>
>
>   <name style="st:formal">Michael Wolf</name>
>   <name style="st:informal">Misha Wolf</name>
>
> There are more complex cases, which pose the question of how a 
> nickname relates to the formality axis.  Is a nickname the most 
> informal name?  Consider:
>
>   <name>John Fitzgerald Kennedy</name>
>   <name>John F. Kennedy</name>
>   <name>Jack Kennedy</name>
>   <name>JFK</name>
>
> The first is clearly the most formal.  The second one is the second 
> most formal.  I don't know which is more/less formal: the third or 
> the fourth?  In any event, this suggests that formal-or-informal 
> may not be sufficient, as there are levels of (in)formality.
>
> This is a similar case:
>
>   <name>George Walker Bush</name>
>   <name>George W. Bush</name>
>   <name>Dubya</name>
>   <name>W</name>
>
>   [See http://www.georgewbushstore.com/200-8001.htm]
>
> though here the third and fourth names are probably equally informal.
>
>
> 4. Purpose (attribute name "purpose")
> -------------------------------------
>
> Example values are: prp:pronounce, prp:sort.
>
> Examples are:
>
>   <name purpose="prp:sort">Zidane, Zinédine</name>
>
>   <name purpose="prp:pronounce" xml:lang="en">Pútin</name>
>
> Misha
>
>
> To find out more about Reuters visit www.about.reuters.com
>
> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Reuters Ltd.
>
>
>
>
>   
Received on Friday, 24 February 2006 16:48:37 GMT

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