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RE: BDO example?

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:41:14 +0100
To: <www-international@w3.org>
Message-ID: <001601c365b8$4ddec9e0$ec01000a@w3c40upc3ma3j2>

For http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/indic-overview/ please read
http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/bidi/

(If you are interested in indic scripts, that will also be available
when the server is rebuilt.)

RI

============
Richard Ishida
W3C

tel: +44 1753 480 292
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ 
http://www.w3.org/International/ 
http://www.w3.org/International/geo/ 

See the W3C Internationalization FAQ page
http://www.w3.org/International/questions.html



> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-international-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> Sent: 18 August 2003 16:47
> To: www-international@w3.org
> Subject: RE: BDO example?
> 
> 
> Jony, Tsahi, Paul, Prog,
> 
> Thanks for your comments.  Tsahi, wrt to the usage of span 
> dir, bdo dir, and rlm/lrm I have drafted some text that might 
> help at http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/indic-overview/ 
> " What you need to know about the bidi algorithm and inline 
> markup" that may help (unfortunately that server is currently 
> down, and probably will be for at least 24 hours, so I've 
> attached a pdf). It's aimed at content authors who need to 
> understand how to implement HTML, rather than techies 
> implementing the bidi algorithm.
> 
> I'd also be interested in your comments on 
> http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/#ri20030218.1353
04584 - which is one of the places for which I'm looking for > examples,
since I'm about to attack the bdo section again. 
> Note that this is still in very early stages - I'm still in 
> the middle of writing it -  and assumes that you have read 
> the document I mention above.
> 
> What I'm looking for is real life examples. Jony, do you have 
> an example of a real part number that I could use?  I think 
> it helps to use realistic examples where possible.
> 
> RI
> 
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> W3C
> 
> tel: +44 1753 480 292
> http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ 
> http://www.w3.org/International/ 
> http://www.w3.org/International/geo/ 
> 
> See the W3C Internationalization FAQ page 
> http://www.w3.org/International/questions.html
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: www-international-request@w3.org 
> > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of 
> Tsahi Asher (by 
> > way of Martin Duerst <duerst@w3.org>)
> > Sent: 16 August 2003 16:37
> > To: www-international@w3.org
> > Subject: RE: BDO example?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > it is true that in some places in the mozilla.org
> > hebrew tech-evangelizm letter, <bdo> can be replaced
> > with &rlm;. i found out about &rlm; only after that
> > letter was written (my html is not very good).
> > 
> > on the other side, i'm not sure about the difference
> > between <span dir="ltr"> and <bdo dir="ltr">, and when
> > will one of them is better used than the other.
> > 
> > tsahi
> > 
> > --- Jony Rosenne <rosennej@qsm.co.il> wrote:
> >  > I'm afraid this isn't a good example, and the
> >  > rational is incorrect. In all
> >  > cases the BDO is not necessary. In some places an
> >  > &rlm; is sufficient, in
> >  > other cases a <span dir="ltr"> will do.
> >  >
> >  > The use of BDO should be limited to when necessary.
> >  > HTML 4 specification
> >  > says:
> >  >
> >  > "The bidirectional algorithm and the dir attribute
> >  > generally suffice to
> >  > manage embedded direction changes. However, some
> >  > situations may arise when
> >  > the bidirectional algorithm results in incorrect
> >  > presentation. The BDO
> >  > element allows authors to turn off the bidirectional
> >  > algorithm for selected
> >  > fragments of text."
> >  >
> >  > "The BDO element should be used in scenarios where
> >  > absolute control over
> >  > sequence order is required (e.g., multi-language
> >  > part numbers)."
> >  >
> >  > Please note that when you want to say "Document
> >  > Object Model (DOM)", in a
> >  > right to left paragraph the acronym follows on the
> >  > left within rtl
> >  > parentheses.
> >  >
> >  > The sample given also has an error in the meta tag.
> >  >
> >  > A corrected version, without BDO, is at
> >  > http://www.qsm.co.il/Hebrew/nobdo.htm
> >  >
> >  > Jony
> >  >
> >  > > -----Original Message-----
> >  > > From: www-international-request@w3.org
> >  > > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On
> >  > Behalf Of
> >  > > bidi@prognathous.mail-central.com
> >  > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:31 AM
> >  > > To: ishida@w3.org; www-international@w3.org
> >  > > Subject: RE: BDO example?
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > Here's an example:
> >  > >
> >  > http://www.mozilla.org/projects/tech-evangelism/site/tech-lett
> >  > > er-he.html
> >  > > You can read the rational for the use of BDO here:
> >  >
> >  > >
> >  >
> > http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99578#c14
> >  > >
> >  > > Prog.
> >  > >
> >  > > On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:30:04 +0200, "Jony Rosenne"
> >  >
> >  > > <rosennej@qsm.co.il>
> >  > > said:
> >  > > >
> >  > > > I have used it for imbedding legacy data from an
> >  > IBM
> >  > > mainframe, which
> >  > > > uses visual encoding, in HTML. I suppose this is
> >  > the most
> >  > > common use
> >  > > > today, because there is quite a lot of legacy
> >  > Hebrew data out there.
> >  > > >
> >  > > > The original example which I gave many years ago
> >  > and helped
> >  > > convince
> >  > > > Unicode that an override was required was a
> >  > reference number, or a
> >  > > > part number, which looks like a random groups of
> >  > digits, Hebrew
> >  > > > letters and Latin letters
> >  > > > with slashes between them, which are often used
> >  > in
> >  > > correspondence. When
> >  > > > we
> >  > > > still used typewrites, back in the previous
> >  > century, people
> >  > > could type
> >  > > > any
> >  > > > odd combination they fancied.
> >  > > >
> >  > > > Jony
> >  > > >
> >  > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >  > > > > From: www-international-request@w3.org
> >  > > > > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On
> >  > Behalf Of
> >  > > Richard Ishida
> >  > > > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:03 PM
> >  > > > > To: www-international@w3.org
> >  > > > > Subject: BDO example?
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > Does anyone have a convincing example of the
> >  > need for BDO
> >  > > > > markup in HTML for Arabic or Hebrew?
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > I already have an example of 'this is what the
> >  > text looks
> >  > > > > like in memory', but that is not very
> >  > mainstream.  I don't
> >  > > > > really want an example that allows the support
> >  > of visually
> >  > > > > encoded text, either.
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > Successful proposers may expect to see their
> >  > example used as
> >  > >
> >  > > > > an illustration in the XHTML 2.0 spec and in
> >  > GEO guidelines.  ;)
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > Thanks in advance,
> >  > > > > RI
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > ============
> >  > > > > Richard Ishida
> >  > > > > W3C
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > tel: +44 1753 480 292
> >  > > > > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> >  > > > > http://www.w3.org/International/
> >  > > > > http://www.w3.org/International/geo/
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > See the W3C Internationalization FAQ page
> >  > > > > http://www.w3.org/International/questions.html
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  >
> >  >
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________
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> 
Received on Monday, 18 August 2003 14:41:45 GMT

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