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Re: Migration to CSS (Re: including ruby in an xhtml 1 transitional doc)

From: Tex Texin <tex@i18nguy.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:00:35 -0400
Message-ID: <3D233BC3.76053F55@i18nGuy.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>
CC: Chris Lilley <chris@w3.org>, www-international@w3.org, w3c-i18n-ig <w3c-i18n-ig@w3.org>

> It would make migration to CSS a whole lot easier if there were a
> table somewhere on the W3C site that showed people the exact
> correspondences without everyone having to stumble along and guess!

Mark is right that this would be helpful, although it is not terribly
difficult to find your way through migration.
However, it gets complicated when different browsers behave differently
with the same instructions and then you are in the no man's land of
trying to guess if you have coded css right and the browser is wrong, or
vice versa, and trying to gauge what works on multiple browsers.

So I would like to see Mark's suggested table produced, and then we can
go off and confirm it for each browser. I know some people have posted
checklists of css features supported by browsers, but these are feature
by feature, not the migration scenarios that Mark requested.

tex

Mark Davis wrote:
> 
> Chris,
> 
> What I think many people would appreciate is a table that of
> correspondences between every single HTML attribute (in context) and
> CSS syntax that would replace it. This may exist somewhere, but I
> can't find it. It would seem to be a fairly important piece of getting
> people to migrate to CSS.
> 
> Some of the correspondences are fairly trivial:
> 
> <p>The <font face="Whimsy ICG">quick</font> brown fox.</p>
> <p>The <span style="font-family:Whimsy ICG">quick</span> brown
> fox.</p>
> 
> Others are a bit of a mystery. Take table borders for example. Someone
> starts with example #1 below, and wants to replace the attribute
> "border='1'" with CSS.
> 
> #1
> <table border="1">
>   <tr>
>     <td>The</td>
>     <td>quick</td>
>   </tr>
> </table>
> 
> He first thinks that #2 would give the same result (in IE, for
> example):
> 
> #2
> <table style="border-style: solid; border-width: 1">
>   <tr>
>     <td>The</td>
>     <td>quick</td>
>   </tr>
> </table>
> 
> Nope, because #1 has lines around the cells, and #2 doesn't. So he
> tries:
> 
> #3
> <table style="border-style: solid; border-width: 1">
>   <tr>
>     <td style="border-style: solid; border-width: 1">The</td>
>     <td style="border-style: solid; border-width: 1">quick</td>
>   </tr>
> </table>
> 
> Not quite the same either, since #1 has a 'ridge' effect, which is
> missing in the new one. Trying different combinations, he might be
> lead to:
> 
> <table style="border-style: ridge; border-width: 4" ;>
>   <tr>
>     <td style="border-style: ridge; padding: 0">The</td>
>     <td style="border-style: ridge; padding: 0">quick</td>
>   </tr>
> </table>
> 
> But that looks very bizarre; both the table and each cell are
> outlined. He can't get them to collapse together. He is about to give
> up and keep the original attributes; trying to figure out what works
> in CSS is too painful. But at last, he stumbles upon:
> 
> <table style="border: outset 1px;">
>   <tr>
>     <td style="border: inset 1px">The</td>
>     <td style="border: inset 1px">quick</td>
>   </tr>
> </table>
> 
> It would make migration to CSS a whole lot easier if there were a
> table somewhere on the W3C site that showed people the exact
> correspondences without everyone having to stumble along and guess!
> 
> Mark
> __________
> http://www.macchiato.com
> ‚—„  ‚€œEppur si muove‚€ ‚–ļ
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Lilley" <chris@w3.org>
> To: <www-international@w3.org>; "Tex Texin" <tex@i18nguy.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 03:59
> Subject: Re: including ruby in an xhtml 1 transitional doc
> 
> >
> > On Wednesday, July 3, 2002, 9:24:37 AM, Tex wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > TT> I have an xhtml transitional page which is using Ruby.
> >
> > TT> I would like it to validate. If I change to XML 1.1 which
> includes Ruby
> > TT> it seems I have to make it a more strictly XML conforming doc.
> >
> > Both XHTML 1.0 and 1.1 use XML. There is no notion of 'more strictly
> > conforming' to XML.
> >
> >
> > TT> What is the proper way to add ruby to a 1.0 transitional doc,
> >
> > aha, you refer to 'transitional' vs 'strict'. Yes, transitional is
> > being phased out. There is little presentational gloss remaining in
> > transitional that you can't do (better) with CSS.
> >
> > TT>  or
> > TT> alternatively to
> > TT> have a 1.1. doc that accepts the older html markup?
> >
> > TT> The page in question is:
> > TT> http://www.i18nguy.com/unicode/unicode-example-ruby.html
> >
> > That file is not even well formed. So since its not XML, its not
> XHTML
> > 1.0.
> >
> > Six edits (missing spaces between attributes, missing quotes around
> > attribute values) made it well formed.
> >
> > It was then invalid, because of the ruby, as you note.
> >
> > Altering the doctype to XHTML 1.1 strict showed a couple of errors -
> > use of the lang attribute (easily fixed by deletion, xml:lang was
> > already there, or by search and replace to xml:lang if not).
> >
> > Then there was the ultra-simple presentational stuff
> >
> > <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFED" link="#0000EE"
> > vlink="#551A8B" alink="#FF0000">
> >
> > totally simple to replace in less than a minute. You already had a
> > link to a stylesheet anyway. And some gratuitous use of center tags,
> > again not needed because class="ctr" looks like there is styling
> > applied ... and some bare text not inside paragraphs a couple of
> > places ... and use of the name attribute instead of the id attribute
> > for link destinations.
> >
> > Thats it. 7 minutes elapsed time (including blow by blow commentary
> > email), valid XHTML 1.1 strict document. XML Spy is wonderful ;-)
> >
> > Should I mail it to you?
> >
> >
> > --
> >  Chris                            mailto:chris@w3.org
> >
> >

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
Tex Texin   cell: +1 781 789 1898   mailto:Tex@XenCraft.com
Xen Master                          http://www.i18nGuy.com
                         
XenCraft		            http://www.XenCraft.com
Making e-Business Work Around the World
-------------------------------------------------------------
Received on Wednesday, 3 July 2002 14:00:43 GMT

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