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RE: Euro mess (Was: valid locales ---> was bilingual websites

From: Paul Deuter <Paul.Deuter@plumtree.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:41:17 -0800
Message-ID: <C7F00D7948B8E4468BB330152C6BA4E001307FB2@cstaex03.USIPLUMTREE.AD>
To: "Tex Texin" <texin@progress.com>, "Carl W. Brown" <cbrown@xnetinc.com>
Cc: <www-international@w3.org>
A similar problem is when capitalization rules change for a locale.
The German government did this a year or so back.  But what if
your software was using the older uppercasing tables to normalize
usernames? (i.e. to allow users to logon with a case insensitive name)

On the one hand it is nice for an application to be able to inherit
these rules from the underlying OS (so that your program just works
in every locale even when the rules change).

It may also be the case that your software is depending on the locale
to not change.  In those cases it is necessary to "copy" out the locale
dependencies and keep them stored with the data that depends upon them.
This is especially the case with currency.  You can let a user type
in a currency value and then get the denomination from the locale.  But
once you have done that, the software must keep the denomination with
the value.  You cannot let an invoice change from dollar values to
just because you emailed it to someone in France.


Paul Deuter
Internationalization Manager
Plumtree Software

-----Original Message-----
From: Tex Texin [mailto:texin@progress.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:15 AM
To: Carl W. Brown
Cc: www-international@w3.org
Subject: Re: Euro mess (Was: valid locales ---> was bilingual websites


I hope the locales issue doesn't fan out into thousands of other
threads, I won't be able to track them.

With respect to the Euro, there are several different issues.

a) Of course the Euro is important and having proper support for the
Euro is required.

b) ISO 8859-15 does not seem to be getting much adoption, which is a
good thing. Since 8859-15 and 8859-1 are incompatible, and if you adopt
8859-15 you likely still need to interchange text with users of 8859-1,
(as they both support the same languages more or less), the world would
be a very difficult if there was a lot of adoption of -15.

Anyone considering -15, should instead be considering Unicode.

And there are other alternatives if the only requirement is to support
the Euro character and continue with a single byte codepage.
Spelling out "Eur" or "Euro" is acceptable if there is space. And
inventing mechanisms (e.g. escape sequences, or other specialized
encodings) to print the Euro symbol are also possible.

c) The issue relative to locales, is there is no standard handling for
the Euro. So my understanding is some software will change the currency
of their European locales from native monetary units to Euro on Jan. 1.
This may be useful for some, but will likely break many applications as

Others will create new locales specific to the Euro and/or specific to
the old native currency. But which nomenclature you use when you are
integrating software with different technologies and different locale
naming conventions is a mystery to me.

So now if I say fr_fr I do not know which currency I get and it may
change from Dec 31 2001 to Jan 1 2002.
If I use an application that integrates technologies with different
rules for locales, it could get very messy.

I presume reading monetary data created before 2002 may also be
interpreted differently after 2002.

And minor upgrades of software may in fact invoke these locale changes,
so what should be a minor patch may in fact be a large change to
monetary handling.

d) I don't know why there isn't more of an outcry over this. Maybe there
is a reason the problems I cite in (c) won't happen that I don't
understand. (I am by no means an expert on the subject. Most of my own
software has explicit regional settings and doesn't follow the locale
model.) It will be interesting to know what people find if they change
their system clock to 2002 and do some application testing.


"Carl W. Brown" wrote:
> Tex,
> I wonder why no one seems to care about the Euro?  Are sites going to
> continue to use iso-5589-1?  How many browsers and systems support
> iso-5589-15?
> Carl
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: www-international-request@w3.org
> > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Tex Texin
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:42 PM
> > To: Martin Duerst
> > Cc: David_Possin@i2.com; Karl Ove Hufthammer;
> > Subject: Re: valid locales ---> was Re: bilingual websites
> >
> >
> > Martin,
> >
> > You mean I can't just grouse and take potshots from the sidelines?
> >
> > Well, I have not seen an alternative proposed and I don't have one
> > the ready, but I don't mind taking a shot at improving the current
> > situation. However, I am crunching now thru the end of the year, so
> > will give it a go in the new year.
> > In the meantime, I would be happy to collect both suggestions for
> > requirements and suggestions for solutions on this list or
> >
> > The new year should be interesting, as the switch to the new Euro
> > currency will demonstrate some of the chaos with locales.
> >
> > tex
> >
> > Martin Duerst wrote:
> > >
> > > Tex - Could you write up (short), or point to, any proposal
> > > for how to do better than currently?
> > >
> > > Regards,  Martin.
> > >
> > > At 14:57 01/10/31 -0500, Tex Texin wrote:
> > > >David,
> > > >
> > > >FWIW, I thoroughly agree that locales as we currently define and
> > > >implement them, do not work.
> > > >As a naming convention it is inadequate, and when you select a
> > name, you
> > > >are not sure what behavior you will get.
> > > >
> > > >I have mentioned this before, and the response is always "Yes,
> > > >broken, but it is the best we have at the moment.".
> > > >
> > > >It is rather unfortunate that we have this methodology therefore,
> > > >that it is accepted, since it won't be fixed as long as this
> > > >continues.
> > > >
> > > >tex
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >-------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >Tex Texin                    Director, International Business
> > > >mailto:Texin@Progress.com    Tel: +1-781-280-4271
> > > >the Progress Company         Fax: +1-781-280-4655
> > > >-------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > --
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > Tex Texin                    Director, International Business
> > mailto:Texin@Progress.com    Tel: +1-781-280-4271
> > the Progress Company         Fax: +1-781-280-4655
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> >

Tex Texin                    Director, International Business
mailto:Texin@Progress.com    Tel: +1-781-280-4271
the Progress Company         Fax: +1-781-280-4655
Received on Wednesday, 7 November 2001 13:39:38 UTC

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