W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-html@w3.org > May 2005

Re: separator abuse

From: Mikko Rantalainen <mikko.rantalainen@peda.net>
Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:52:26 +0300
Message-ID: <429C33DA.2070108@peda.net>
To: www-html@w3.org

Johannes Koch wrote:
> Lachlan Hunt wrote:
> 
>>http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/05/separator-elements
> 
> Additionally, the structure of separated perspectives may not fit into 
> the structure of chapters/sections etc., e.g.
> 
> <section> ... This is perspective 1 ... This is perspective 2</section>
> <section>This is still perspective 2 ... This is perspective 1 
> again</section>

I'd would mark such structure as

<section>
<part class="p1">... This is perspective 1 ...</part>
<part class="p2"> This is perspective 2</part>
</section>
<section>
<part class="p2">This is still perspective 2 ...</part>
<part class="p1">This is perspective 1 again</part>
</section>

with possibly 'class' replaced by 'role'. The hypothetical element 
<part> is a grouping element which semantics is to group paragraphs 
into groups about the same "thing". Logically it's a level between 
<section> and <p> to handle the case where <section> cannot be used 
because of its semantics and the only logical choice would be <div> 
or <group>. I consider <group> to be too generic to be used to group 
paragraphs with the same context. I'd settle with using just <group> 
  between <section> and <p> but I think <div> isn't a good enough 
choice.

That still leaves us with the <nl> separator problem. The solution 
suggested in 
http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/05/separator-elements#sep-example-7 
looks logically almost perfect but the intended rendering (menu 
items separated by horizontal lines) is really hard to infer from 
such structure. The logic should be

"Draw a horizontal line between two <li> elements if they're childs 
of <nl> element and both contain <ul> element as their only child."

Such a complex rule would be needed because otherwise the simple 
case would be rendered with separator lines:

<nl>
   <label>Menu</label>
   <li>Item 1</li><!-- there should be no separator line here -->
   <li>Item 3</li>
   <li>
     <nl>
       ...
     </nl>
   <li>
</nl>

It seems to me that this is logically the same problem as having the 
<separator> element inside <li> element to separate items inside 
other <li> elements.

> Which is just like what I find in my bible. Division into chapters and 
> verse numbering sometimes look as if done by chance :-) whereas 
> paragraphs are printed according to the structure of the story. How do 
> you markup this?
> <chapter>
>    <verse>...</verse>
>    <verse>...</verse>
>    <verse>...</verse>
>    <paragraphBreak/>
>    <verse>...</verse>
>    <verse>...</verse>
> </chapter>
> <chapter>
>    <verse>...</verse>
>    <verse>...</verse>
>    <paragraphBreak/>
> </chapter>
> ?

Logically I see this structure as a poem. So the structure should be

<section>
   <p>
     <l>verse...</l>
     <l>verse...</l>
     <l>verse...</l>
   </p>
   <p>
     <l>verse...</l>
     <l>verse...</l>
   </p>
</section>
<section>
   <p>
     <l>verse...</l>
     <l>verse...</l>
   </p>
   <p>
     <!-- empty paragraph? -->
   </p>
</section>

-- 
Mikko
Received on Tuesday, 31 May 2005 09:52:35 UTC

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