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Re: separator/seperator Re: About XHTML 2.0

From: Karl Dubost <karl@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:40:04 -0400
Message-Id: <0CDE8DFA-E821-470C-ADCC-0BD0FB9C6E25@w3.org>
To: www-html@w3.org

Le 05-05-23 à 10:53, Karl Dubost a écrit :
> Le 05-05-22 à 17:03, Orion Adrian a écrit :
>>  Light weight seperators do exist and I for one like the fact that  
>> they get
>> their own construct.
> Please, could you give references ?
> Manuals of typography, maybe?

I'm still looking for Semantics reason, which were already existing  
in the past. I have discovered that Unicode had a lot of separators :)

FS 001C File separator
GS 001D Group separator
RS 001E Record separator
US 001F Unit separator
LS 2028 Line separator
PS 2029 Paragraph separator

There are things defined in a coordinated note between I18N and Unicode

"Unicode in XML and other Markup languages"

[[[3.2 Line and Paragraph Separator, U+2028..U+2029
Short description: The line and paragraph separator provide  
unambiguous means to denote hard line breaks and paragraph delimiters  
in plain text.

Reason for inclusion: These characters were introduced into the  
Unicode Standard to overcome the ambiguous and widely divergent use  
of control codes for this purpose. See Unicode Technical Report #13,  
Unicode Newline Guidelines [UAX13].

Problems when used in markup: Including these characters in markup  
text does not work where it would duplicate the existing markup  
commands for delimiting paragraphs and lines.

Problems with other uses: The separator characters can also  
problematic when used in plain text, because legacy data is usually  
converted code point for code point into Unicode and all receivers of  
Unicode plain text have to effectively be able to interpret the  
existing use of control codes for this purpose. As a result, fewer  
Unicode implementations support these characters, than would be the  
case otherwise.

Replacement markup: In HTML, use <xhtml:br /> instead of U+2028 and  
surround paragraphs by <xhtml:p> and </xhtml:p> instead of separating  
them with U+2029.

What to do if detected: In a browser context, treat as whitespace.  
When received in an editing context, replace the character by the  
corresponding markup.

]]] - http://www.w3.org/TR/unicode-xml/#Line

Not the same semantic of the old "hr" and the new "separator". At  
least, we could argue that if it's not style nor semantics, it's  
already in Unicode.

Or maybe it's something which is very GUI related, as semantics of  
computers, like a menu, like some people tend to say. I have indeed  
seen visual separators in menu in application, for example the drop  
down menus of my Mail application. Does that mean is it a semantic  
organization of text in a general context? or is it something which  
is completely related to computers UI.

Because if we assert that such things should be inside XHTML 2.0, I  
could argue that I want something to represent strophe, verse,  
etc. :) Not there are not only lines ;) they have a precise meaning  
in poetry.

I'm still searching a semantic definition of separator and I have no  
luck for now. Can someone provide a definition from a real source and  
not only a use case. Please. :)

Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager
*** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Received on Monday, 23 May 2005 19:40:07 UTC

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