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Re: Adding label to other list elements?

From: <jens.meiert@erde3.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:18:22 +0200 (MEST)
To: "Ben Meadowcroft" <cee.plus@virgin.net>, www-html@w3.org
Message-ID: <30719.1054549102@www41.gmx.net>

Well, I suppose either to create another element group instead or to solve
this for your own via other elements (e.g., related to the type of the
supposed visualization, with <dl />, looks nearly the same).

In my opinion, you 'abuse' the list elements for such purposes.


Regards,
 Jens Meiert.



> Ernest Cline wrote:
> > Ben Meadowcroft wrote:
> >
> >> In a recent post entitled "XHTML 2.0 List Module negates the semantic
> >> usefulness of definition lists." I mentioned that the specification
> >> lacked a "more general/neutral list element
> >> that relates two items together (like a DT DD pair)". The motivation
> >> for this was to reduce the need for authors to "abuse" the
> >> definition list to model labelled dialogues for example.
> >>
> >> Having thought about it I would like to propose that the label
> >> element introduced with navigation lists be introduced into ordered
> >> and unordered lists. The motivation for this is that these more
> >> content neutral elements will now be able to utilised instead of
> >> wresting the semantics of a definition list. We will now have a
> >> proper mechanism for associating labels with normal list items.
> >>
> >> Use Case: modelling a dialogue.
> >>
> >> <ol>
> >>  <label>Dave</label>
> >>  <li>Hi, how are you doing?</li>
> >>  <label>Kieran</label>
> >>  <li>Fine Thanks, and you?</li>
> >>  <label>Dave</label>
> >>  <li>Doing well, I got that job I applied for at CERN so I am really
> >> pleased.</li>
> >> </ol>
> >>
> >> produces (with suitable css of course)
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>   Hi, how are you doing?
> >> Kieran
> >>   Fine Thanks, and you?
> >> Dave
> >>   Doing well, I got that job I applied for at CERN so I am really
> >> pleased.
> >>
> >>
> >> So does this idea have legs then? Perhaps a different element name
> >> than label(although I think it's quite neat)?
> >
> > Well first off, while I can see the desirability of having an element
> > to indicate a semantically important marker that is associated with a
> > list item, it shouldn't be placed outside of the list item or you are
> > just getting a <dl> with different element names.
> 
> We agree on the desirability then, a good start!
> 
> I understand your point about placing it inside the list item, however I
> disagree that this is the best method.
> 
> To ensure I am understanding you correctly you are envisioning something
> along the lines of:
> 
> <ul>
> <li><newlabelel>Label for item</newlabelel> Miscellaneous item text</li>
> </ul>
> 
> The reason I question this concept is that it seem too similar to what can
> be achieved with a <h> to me. For example
> 
> <ul>
> <li><section><h>Label for item</h> Miscellaneous item text</section></li>
> </ul>
> 
> Here a heading or label is clearly related to a single item.
> 
> What are the merrits of my inital proposal. Well as you stated "you are
> just
> getting a <dl> with different element names", this is true in a sense, we
> would be getting the functionality provided by a <dl> but without
> polluting
> the semantics of the <dl> element.
> 
> This functionality, the ability to associate a label to multiple items of
> data, and vice versa, is a powerful one that should be extended to the
> more
> generic list elements <ol> and <ul>. An example of this is a list of
> slides,
> with attached labels.
> 
> <ol>
>   <label>Introduction</label>
>   <li>What is RDF</li>
> 
>   <label>Practical Applications</label>
>   <li>RDF in RSS 1.0</li>
>   <li>RDF in FOAF 0.1</li>
> 
>   <label>Implementation Issues</label>
>   <li>Syntactic issues</li>
>   <li>Validation</li>
> 
>   <label>Conclusion</label>
>   <label>Future Directions</label>
>   <li>n-triples</li>
>   <li>rpv</li>
> </ol>
> 
> Determining which labels are associated with which items would follow the
> same algorithm used to determine which <dt>s are associated with which
> <dd>s. Nesting issues should not be an issue as this would be inherently
> supplied by the use of nested lists.
> 
> > In fact since your example is not a list, using an <ol> is just as bad
> > as using a <dl>.
> 
> I used an <ol> as the dialogue is a series of phrases given in a specific
> ordered.
> An <ol> is described as containing "Ordered information", a dialogue can
> be
> seen as an ordered series of information, wheras seeing it as a series of
> terms and definitions is something more of a stretch.
> 
> > Rather, I'd use:
> >
> > <div class="dialogue">
> >  <div>
> >   <cite>Dave</cite>
> >   <blockquote>Hi, how are you doing?</blockquote>
> >  </div><div>
> >   <cite>Kieram</cite>
> >   <blockquote>
> >    Fine.
> >    Thanks.
> >    And you?
> >   </blockquote>
> >  </div><div>
> >   <cite>Dave</cite>
> >   <blockquote>
> >    Doing well.
> >    I got that job I applied for at CERN, so I am really pleased.
> >   </blockquote>
> >  </div>
> > </div>
> 
> Seems like a nice implementation of a dialogue to me.
> 
> > Now if there were a Diologue Module with specific elements for this
> > sort of thing, it would be even better, but do dialogues occur often
> > enough to justify it?
> 
> Probably not, however my argument was not based on the need to
> specifically
> model dialogues, it was motivated by the need to provide a more general
> mechanism of providing some method of relating a label to a list element
> (and thus stopping the abuse of the <dl> element). I propse extending <ol>
> and <ul> elements as these are fairly content neutral.
> 
> 


-- 
Jens Meiert

Steubenstr. 28
D-26123 Oldenburg

Telefon +49 (0)441 99 86 147
Telefax +49 (0)89 1488 2325 91
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Received on Monday, 2 June 2003 06:18:36 GMT

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