W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-html@w3.org > November 2000

Lack of border attribute for framessets in 4.01 frameset DTD (was : validator)

From: Dave J Woolley <david.woolley@bts.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:19:10 -0000
Message-ID: <81E4A2BC03CED111845100104B62AFB5824BC6@stagecoach.bts.co.uk>
To: "'www-html@w3.org'" <www-html@w3.org>
> From:	Mark A Gregory [SMTP:mgregory@creativefactory.com.au]
> I do not understand your statement "Your subject is totally misleading".
	[DJW:]  The question was not about the validator but
	about the use of border in standard HTML.  The validator
	simply checks for conformance with the formal specification.

	People filter on subject when in a hurry.

> If frameset is not supported then why does the validator accept it?
	Because you didn't use the strict DTD.  You used the frameset
	DTD which depends on the transitional one.  The validator
	will accept elements that are obsolete in HTML 4 if you 
	give it a DOCTYPE for an old enough DTD, and any element if
	you provide your own DTD.

> If frameset is part of a loose HTML standard then someone should look
> at the problem caused by border not being an attribute of frameset.
	The purpose of the loose DTD is to allow transition to the
	strict one.  As people have had three or four years to make 
	that transition and eliminate framesets, I think you can 
	safely assume that no-one is going to change the loose DTD
	now.  I had a look last night:  none of Microsoft, Deja, AltaVista
	or Google use frames, at least not for their home pages.

> c. just tell the client that the W3C standard is full of holes
	The W3C standard has an agenda that extends beyond simply
	sanctioning what Microsoft and Netscape do.  Part of that
	agenda is to maintain the distinction between presentational
	aspects and structural aspects.  To some extent it is frustrated
	by poor browser implementations, but the history is that, whilst
	it has compromised, it has never completely given in to 
	rubber stampting NS and MS.

	The aim is that presentational aspects should be described by
	style sheets.

NB you will never get an official W3C position on this list as the
real decisions are made behind closed doors.
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Received on Friday, 10 November 2000 06:19:11 UTC

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