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To: www-html@w3.org
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Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 06:04:18 GMT
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ROM: Adminstrator                                                             
TO: www-html@w3.org                                            DATE: 06-30-96  
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

www-html-d Digest				Volume 96 : Issue 118

Today's Topics:
	 Re: new anchor type?
	 RE: Valid Editors; Frames DTD
	 RE: Valid Editors; Frames DTD
	  Footnotes/Definitions -Reply
	 Re: Is markup allowed in attribute values?
	 Re: Is markup allowed in attribute values?
	 Re: Is markup allowed in attribute values?
	 Re: Valid Editors; Frames DTD 
	 Re: new anchor type? 
	 Re: new anchor type? 
	 Commitment to Standards
	 RE: Commitment to Standards
	 Re: Introducing NetscapeML
	 Re: Commitment to Standards
	 RE: Introducing NetscapeML

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:40:30 -0400
From: The Boss <matthew@tir.com>
To: Adrian Lozano <adrian@spray.se>
Cc: www-html@w3.org
Subject: Re: new anchor type?
Message-Id: <31D2F1BE.29AC@tir.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
content-length: 940

Adrian Lozano wrote:
> 
> THE BOSS CREATOR OF TRUE LINK:
> > Yes I agree the explanation is better then a footnote!!
> 
> Galactus:
> > How, if the footnote can contain markup and the explanation can't?
> 
> THE BOSS CREATOR OF TRUE LINK:
> > Because if your giving an explanation you don't need a hyperlink in
> > it and if you want one you can ask to have it added it to the
> > explanation tag!!
>               ^^^
> Seems to me that the EXPLANATION >>attribute<< is just a special
> case of the proposed FN tag. Besides, having EXPLANATION be an
> attribute to A appears arbitrary. What would ferinstance
> 
>   <A EXPLANATION="foo" HREF="foo.html">bar</A>
> 
> do?

Yeah that would work great!!
-- 
THE BOSS CREATOR OF TRUE LINK
HOME WEB PAGE:  http://www.tir.com/~matthew/
E-MAIL:  matthew@tir.com
A member of the HTML Writers Guild
I'm also a member of Whos Who Online!
Want a dynamic website?
Please e-mail me or call 810-688-2016

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 17:32:28 -0400
From: "Solko, Dave (SOLKODE)" <SOLKODE@exchange.uc.edu>
To: "'www-html@w3.org'" <www-html@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Valid Editors; Frames DTD
Message-Id:
<c=US%a=_%p=University_of_Ci%l=EXCHANGE-960627213228Z-536@EXCHANGE.UC.EDU>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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>
>From: 	James Aylett
>Sent: 	Thursday, June 27, 1996 12:30PM
>
>On Wed, 26 Jun 1996, Solko, Dave (SOLKODE) wrote:
>
>
>Yes - but for older browsers that might understand BODY tags with
>extensions, eg:
>
><BODY BGCOLOUR="#555555"> ... </BODY>
Yes, what I do is put the BODY element within the NOFRAMES. Since
frame-browsers are supposed to ignore everything within the NOFRAMES
element, they don't care, and non-framed browsers ignore the frames info
anyway. Perhaps I missread the initial posting on this thread, I thought
it was:
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<BODY>
<FRAMESET>
</FRAMESET>
</BODY>
</HTML>

Shouldn't that be BGCOLOR, or does NS understand non-american spellings?


	                                                            	     ,,,
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:29:39 +0100 (BST)
From: James Aylett <sja20@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: "Solko, Dave (SOLKODE)" <SOLKODE@exchange.uc.edu>
Cc: "'www-html@w3.org'" <www-html@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Valid Editors; Frames DTD
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.93.960627222816.9107D-100000@crystal.clare.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
content-length: 527

On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Solko, Dave (SOLKODE) wrote:

> Shouldn't that be BGCOLOR, or does NS understand non-american spellings?

Erm, yes it should (no it doesn't AFAIK), I just wasn't totally awake, and
therefore defaulted to the <A REL="reply-to" HREF="/dev/null">correct</A>
spelling.

James

/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
\
  James Aylett - Crystal Services (crystal.clare.cam.ac.uk): BBS, Ftp and Web
     Clare College, Cambridge, CB2 1TL -- sja20@cam.ac.uk -- (0976) 212023

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:54:08 -0800
From: Charles Peyton Taylor <CTaylor@wposmtp.nps.navy.mil>
To: www-html@w3.org
Subject:  Footnotes/Definitions -Reply
Message-Id: <s1d3e40a.081@wposmtp.nps.navy.mil>
content-length: 1850

The Link element does much of what you are looking for.

<LINK REL=Glossary href="gloss.html" >


It's described in HTML 2:

http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/MarkUp/html-spec/html-spec_5.html#SEC5.2.4

And then further explained in the html 3 (expired) draft:

http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/MarkUp/html3/dochead.html

Unfortunately, it's only supported by NCSA Mosaic for Macintosh
and UDI-WWW so far.

Charles

>>> Shawn Steele <shawn@aob.org> 06/26/96 04:48pm >>>
<snip>
>I had wondered about a similar problem.  What if you have a group
>of definitions, but don't want to end up with html that looks
>like:
>
>A <A TAG="#brown">brown</a> <A TAG="#cow">cow</a> ate a <A
>TAG="#brown">brown</a> <A TAG="#fox">fox</a>....
>
>I'm thinking of an educational situation where the student may
>not know many of the words on a page and those words may be used
>several times on a page.  In such cases it would be useful to
>have some syntax such as:
>
><GLOSSARY="wordlist" HREF="glossary.html">
>
>as part of the <head> or elsewhere (I haven't given the details a
>great deal of thought.)
>
>This would be extraordinarily useful to me because I am
>developing an educational site where lots of words may not be
>known.  If I could reference a single glossary from several pages
>it could solve a lot of student frustration.  One glossary
>containing a hundred words or so could be referenced from a
>hundred pages without manually indexing them.
>
>Also just because a word appeared in a word list wouldn't
>necessarily meen that it needed to be underlined and displayed in
>a seperate color, it could just be click onable.  Also it need
>not be a true link, but could just be a FN box.  (Of course it
>would help if you could get to another page with greater detail
>if you were really curious about the subject.)
>
>- shawn  Webmaster
>Association of Brewers
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 16:47:12 -0400
From: "Eve L. Maler" <elm@arbortext.com>
To: murray@spyglass.com (Murray Altheim),
        Arnoud "Galactus" Engelfriet <galactus@stack.urc.tue.nl>
Cc: amc@cs.wustl.edu (Adam M. Costello), www-html@w3.org, elm@arbortext.com
Subject: Re: Is markup allowed in attribute values?
Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960628204712.0867511c@village.doctools.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
content-length: 2083

At 08:01 PM 6/26/96 -0500, Murray Altheim wrote:
...
>Here's a few types of attribute declarations you might find in a DTD:
>
>    NAME    The attribute contains a valid SGML NAME, which in HTML
>            consists of a valid name start character (a-z,A-Z) followed
>            by up to 71 alpha, numeric, hyphen and/or period characters.
>            No spaces allowed. The length is set by NAMELEN in the SGML
>            declaration.
>
>    NAMES   A space-delimited list of NAME tokens. The CLASS attribute
>            in i18n and the expired HTML 3.0 draft are declared as NAMES.
>
>    ID      A unique NAME. There are no ID attributes in the HTML 2.0
>            DTD, but the ID attribute in i18n is declared ID.
>
>    CDATA   Character Data that allows all valid SGML characters,
>            which should not be interpreted by the parser.
>
>    RCDATA  Similar to CDATA except that general and character entity
>            replacements should occur.
>
>    PCDATA  Parsed Character Data, allowing all valid SGML characters.
>            Within PCDATA, all markup (including start and end tags,
>            character and entity references, comments) is recognized
>            and processed accordingly.

This isn't quite correct.  You can specify NAME, NAMES, ID, and CDATA
(among others) as "declared values" for an attribute, but RCDATA and
PCDATA aren't allowed here; RCDATA can be used for element "declared 
content" (as can CDATA), and #PCDATA is used in element content models.
(The # must be used to distinguish the keyword from any element called
"pcdata".)

This is naturally confusing, because in attribute list declarations, 
CDATA as a declared value has the effect of  "replaceable character 
data" if the value has been put in quotes!

        Eve

<!-- Eve Maler .............. elm@arbortext.com ....... ArborText Inc. -->
<!-- Sponsor, Davenport ..... http://www.ora.com/davenport/README.html -->
<!-- Coauthor, Developing SGML DTDs: From Text to Model to Markup .... -->
<!-- http://www.prenhall.com/013/309880/30988-0.html ................. -->

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 19:02:42 -0500
From: murray@spyglass.com (Murray Altheim)
To: "Eve L. Maler" <elm@arbortext.com>
Cc: Arnoud "Galactus" Engelfriet <galactus@stack.urc.tue.nl>, www-html@w3.org
Subject: Re: Is markup allowed in attribute values?
Message-Id: <v02110103adfa1df85051@[140.186.34.50]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
content-length: 1847

"Eve L. Maler" <elm@arbortext.com> writes:
>At 08:01 PM 6/26/96 -0500, Murray Altheim wrote:
>...
>>Here's a few types of attribute declarations you might find in a DTD:
[...]
>>    RCDATA  Similar to CDATA except that general and character entity
>>            replacements should occur.
>>
>>    PCDATA  Parsed Character Data, allowing all valid SGML characters.
>>            Within PCDATA, all markup (including start and end tags,
>>            character and entity references, comments) is recognized
>>            and processed accordingly.
>
>This isn't quite correct.  You can specify NAME, NAMES, ID, and CDATA
>(among others) as "declared values" for an attribute, but RCDATA and
>PCDATA aren't allowed here; RCDATA can be used for element "declared
>content" (as can CDATA), and #PCDATA is used in element content models.
>(The # must be used to distinguish the keyword from any element called
>"pcdata".)
>
>This is naturally confusing, because in attribute list declarations,
>CDATA as a declared value has the effect of  "replaceable character
>data" if the value has been put in quotes!

Yes, you're correct. I tried correcting this in a subsequent note, but even
there I think I neglected to make it quite as clear as you have. As you
mention, the confusion in the meaning of CDATA (as I understand it and
tried explaining it in my later note) is that one must differentiate
between "attribute value literal" and the derived "attribute value".

Ooops! I just realized I'd not queued that message, so I'll send it now (as
a reply to Paul's message).

Thanks,

Murray

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
`
     Murray Altheim, Program Manager
     Spyglass, Inc., Cambridge, Massachusetts
     email: <mailto:murray@spyglass.com>
     http:  <http://www.stonehand.com/murray/murray.html>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 18:50:57 -0500
From: murray@spyglass.com (Murray Altheim)
To: Paul Prescod <papresco@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
Cc: www-html@w3.org
Subject: Re: Is markup allowed in attribute values?
Message-Id: <v02110100adf8918634d3@[140.186.34.50]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
content-length: 5238

Paul Prescod <papresco@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> writes:
>At 08:01 PM 6/26/96 -0500, Murray Altheim wrote:
>>First, note that not all attributes are declared CDATA. I'm not sure what
>>you mean by "sometimes" entities. Most HTML attributes can contain
>>entities; the question is whether or not they will be processed (ie.,
>>replaced).
>
>I'm getting confused by this discussion, so let me see if I can clarify.
>_ALL_ SGML/HTML attributes may have entity references in them. _ALL_
>SGML/HTML attributes allow entity expansion/processing/replacement (choose
>your favourite term).

Paul,

Sorry to cause any confusion -- you're "mostly" correct. Goldfarb makes a
point about this being confusing, and I likewise get confused when the
discussion is not precise.

The reason I didn't state "always" is that there are several instances of
attributes declared as NAME, NAMES or ID in various HTML DTDs, and in those
cases ampersand and semicolon characters are disallowed. Because there is
no "reasonable" instance of general or character entities resolving to
valid NAME, I made the statement. I'll try to explain what I mean by this
below.

In the process of parsing an "attribute value literal" (the text you typed
between quote marks), the parser derives an "attribute value". Any general
or character entities in the _attribute value literal_ are resolved (ie.,
"expanded/processed/replaced") at this point. Attribute value literals
_can_ contain general or character entities. BUT, if in parsing the
attribute value literal, the derived attribute value doesn't fit the
declared value of the attribute, the markup is invalid.

As an example, note that the "NAME" attribute in META is declared as NAME,:

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN" [
    <!ENTITY foo "KEYWORDS">
    ]>
    <HTML>
    <HEAD>
    <META NAME="&foo;" CONTENT="mexico,canada,usa">
    ...

In parsing the attribute value literal "&foo;", the derived attribute value
is "KEYWORDS" (not including the quote marks). This is so far valid HTML
markup. If you were so inclined, you could even declare &foo; as
"K&#69;YWORDS", since &#69; is replaced by "E". But had the general entity
&foo; been declared as "K&#201;YWORDS" (where &#201; is E with acute
accent), the derived attribute value would not be a valid NAME, since the
E+acute character is not an allowed NAME character. Likewise, declaring
&foo; as "KEYWORDS_FRENCH" would be invalid, since the underscore is not a
valid NAME character.

In essence, the result of replacing entities in attributes declared as NAME
must result in a valid NAME. Since there's no good reason to use numeric
entity references for valid NAME characters, I assume that the author would
be using a numeric or ISO character reference (such as "&#201;" or
"&Eacute;"), which would result in an invalid NAME. Since general entity
replacement doesn't occur in mainstream browsers, my example above doesn't
work either.

So in no "reasonable" instance can entities occur in HTML attributes
declared as NAME, NAMES, or ID [1]. Technically (in true SGML-conformant
HTML) they can, if their replacement results in a valid NAME. But I don't
see this occurring in mainstream HTML. Hence my statement that attributes
declared as NAME, NAMES or ID can't contain entities.

[...]
>So, as I understand it, entity markup is _always_ allowed in attributes.

I'm not clear on the term "entity markup", but I'm assuming you mean the
presence of general or character entities such as &foo; or &Eacute;. Given
the discussion above, yes, entities are always allowed within attribute
value literals, but their replacement must result in an attribute value
that conforms to the attribute declared value in the DTD or DTD subset.

>Less than and greater than symbols are _never_ interpreted as markup within
>attributes (just as they are not in "replacable character data) so it is
>impossible to put elements in attributes although it is possible (in fact
>quite easy) to put less than and greater than characters in attributes.

In this case, technically, a general entity might resolve to a literal
containing markup. If the attribute was declared as CDATA, the markup
wouldn't be interpreted; if RCDATA, the markup would be interpreted. But
given that general entities are declared in a DTD subset, an SGML feature
that isn't supported in mainstream HTML, and that there are no declared
RCDATA attributes in any HTML DTD I'm aware of, your statement is pretty
safe for current HTML practice, but I wouldn't go so far as to say NEVER. I
have quite a number of SGML/HTML documents that do this type of thing.

Murray

[1] Some examples in HTML-i18n would be HTTP-EQUIV and NAME in META,
%linktype;, the ID and CLASS attributes.

[p.s. One mistake I made in the last message: technically, PCDATA is not a
attribute declared value, but a reserved name. The #PCDATA keyword is used
to indicated content occurring in a context in which text is parsed and
markup is recognized.]

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
`
     Murray Altheim, Program Manager
     Spyglass, Inc., Cambridge, Massachusetts
     email: <mailto:murray@spyglass.com>
     http:  <http://www.stonehand.com/murray/murray.html>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 12:03:30 -0400
From: Matthew James Marnell <marnellm@portia.portia.com>
To: "James K. Tauber" <jtauber@library.uwa.edu.au>
Cc: www-html@w3.org
Subject: Re: Valid Editors; Frames DTD 
Message-Id: <199606291603.MAA06677@portia.portia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
content-length: 394

:>Does W3C or anyone else have a list of recommended HTML editors that 
:>produce valid HTML including the document type declaration?

I know of one.  Xemacs 19.14 operates with an SGML mode, lets you define
which DTD to use when editing files, and will use sgmls(if you have it
installed) to validate your HTML.  I've fallen quite in love with it
since I installed it a couple days ago.

Matt

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 12:31:42 -0400
From: Matthew James Marnell <marnellm@portia.portia.com>
To: Walter Ian Kaye <boo@best.com>
Cc: www-html@w3.org
Subject: Re: new anchor type? 
Message-Id: <199606291631.MAA06926@portia.portia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
content-length: 647

:>Well, Netscape has a JavaScript mechanism you could use. Here's a sample:
:>
:><A HREF="" onMouseOver="self.status='A design methodology in which
integrated
circuits are built from a library of pre-designed building blocks. (Click for
full definition)';return true">

It's a pity that Netscape doesn't recognize the TITLE attribute to
the <A> tag.  If they did, that and an DEFINE or EXPLANATION or FN
could be used to do the popup, and you wouldn't have to muck with
all that stupid messy javascript, and your documents might acutally
be useful to any browser that comes on the market, whether they
support javascript or not.

Pity that.

Matt

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 02:02:24 +0900
From: Ka-Ping Yee <s-ping@orange.cv.tottori-u.ac.jp>
To: Matthew James Marnell <marnellm@portia.portia.com>
Cc: Walter Ian Kaye <boo@best.com>, www-html@w3.org
Subject: Re: new anchor type? 
Message-Id: <31D561A0.51AACF1D@sse.tottori-u.ac.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
content-length: 1158

Matthew James Marnell wrote:
> 
> It's a pity that Netscape doesn't recognize the TITLE attribute to
> the <A> tag.  If they did ... your documents might acutally
> be useful to any browser that comes on the market, whether they
> support javascript or not.

One of many unfortunate facts.

It's a pity that Netscape...

    - doesn't support the ID attribute.
    - doesn't support the FN tag.
    - still parses comments wrong.
    - lets incorrect markup pass as okay.
    - flags correct markup as wrong, and makes it blink.
    - encourages people to use bad markup by
          endorsing SIZE=+5 and BGCOLOR=#343434.
    - doesn't support SRC in HR or UL or LI tags.
    - leaves blank lines for multiple BR tags.
    - doesn't support LH.
    - never bothered to do FIGures or OVERLAYs.
    - doesn't let you at the information in any LINK tags.
    - doesn't support stylesheets.

Pity that.

(Anyone else care to add to this list?  This is just what
i could come up with in about one minute.  -- Note also
that each of the missing features mentioned above are
currently available in at least one other browser.)


Ka-Ping Yee
University of Waterloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:04:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Lee Daniel Crocker" <lcrocker@calweb.com>
To: thomasre@microsoft.com (Thomas Reardon)
Cc: www-html@w3.org
Subject: Commitment to Standards
Message-Id: <199606300404.VAA06795@web1.calweb.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
content-length: 1015

> I want to be the first to let the world know what wonderous new
> things Netscape has done for us this week.

If MS really wants to make points here, don't bother preaching
to the choir: have the balls to make a real press release
affirming MS's commitment to standards in direct opposition
to Netscape's clear contempt of them, and then follow through.
Remove the page on microsoft.com that advocates &#151; and other
illegal character entities, and fix MSIE to support the correct
ones.  Add CSS1-based frames in addition to the old NS hack.
Commit _now_ that MS will _not_ support the new Netscape-isms,
put those functions into style sheets, and publicise how to use
them correctly.  Make the Internet Assistants for Word and Excel
generate valid HTML with stylesheets.  Commit to supporting
PNG, so MSIE can actually read W3C's pages without gagging.

If MS does all that--at least--then maybe it has a right to
complain about Netscape.

--
Lee Daniel Crocker <lee@piclab.com>
(formerly leecr@microsoft.com)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:28:40 -0700
From: Thomas Reardon <thomasre@microsoft.com>
To: "'Lee Daniel Crocker'" <lee@piclab.com>
Cc: "'www-html@w3.org'" <www-html@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Commitment to Standards
Message-Id:
<c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-76-MSG-960630042840Z-17081@tide19.microsoft.com>
content-length: 2715

TR> responses below

>----------
>From: 	Lee Daniel Crocker[SMTP:lcrocker@calweb.com]
>Sent: 	Sunday, June 30, 1996 12:04 AM
>To: 	Thomas Reardon
>Cc: 	www-html@w3.org
>Subject: 	Commitment to Standards
>
>> I want to be the first to let the world know what wonderous new
>> things Netscape has done for us this week.
>
>If MS really wants to make points here, don't bother preaching
>to the choir: have the balls to make a real press release
>affirming MS's commitment to standards in direct opposition
>to Netscape's clear contempt of them, and then follow through.
>Remove the page on microsoft.com that advocates &#151; and other
>illegal character entities, and fix MSIE to support the correct
>ones.  Add CSS1-based frames in addition to the old NS hack.
>Commit _now_ that MS will _not_ support the new Netscape-isms,
>put those functions into style sheets, and publicise how to use
>them correctly.  Make the Internet Assistants for Word and Excel
>generate valid HTML with stylesheets.  Commit to supporting
>PNG, so MSIE can actually read W3C's pages without gagging.
TR> we are fixing the entity reference for our beta2.  should be up in
the next few days if not sooner.  this was raised on this very list
about a month ago which is how i found out and committed to fixing then.
 this will also include fixes to IE itself to handle a bunch of named
entities it previously failed on.  note that &trade will be supported
because mosaic and other legacy apps support; because of this we are
trying to add it to HTML 3.2 spec now.
TR> CSS-based frames are coming, but not for IE3.  the HTML ERB at W3C
has committed to a bakeoff between the netscape-based design and a
css-based design, and we will follow whatever the community decides
upon.  of course, our up front opinion is that css rules.
TR> Regarding PNG, if we haven't been clear, then let me take this
opportunity: we ABSOLUTELY will support PNG in the IE3 timeframe, if not
right at ship then shortly afterward and before IE4.  note that it will
probably only be supported via OBJECT not IMG.
TR> We cannot commit to not supporting Netscape-isms.  In fact, if
Netscape proposes them as formal standards in a collaborative manner,
then we would take a good look at endorsing as part of the actual
standard.  In response to your direct question, yes, of course these
latest netscape-isms will be in style sheets, in fact much of them
already are.
TR> Internet Assistants will begin supporting style sheets by end of
year.  Excel in particular will also make use of RFC1952 tables.
>
>If MS does all that--at least--then maybe it has a right to
>complain about Netscape.
>
>--
>Lee Daniel Crocker <lee@piclab.com>
>(formerly leecr@microsoft.com)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 0:44:23 EDT
From: "Ian S. Graham" <igraham@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
To: thomasre@microsoft.com (Thomas Reardon)
Cc: www-html@w3.org
Subject: Re: Introducing NetscapeML
Message-Id: <199606300444.AAA28474@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
content-length: 1149

>
> I want to be the first to let the world know what wonderous new things
> Netscape has done for us this week.  They just posted the release notes
> for beta5 of Navigator 3.0 which includes *HTML* elements for

If you are going to let us know about this development, perhaps you could 
post the URL where this Netscape-specific stuff is documented/described -- 
it is hard to comment without it.

Ian
--
Ian Graham .................................... ian.graham@utoronto.ca
Information Commons                             University of Toronto 
> 
> I want to be the first to let the world know what wonderous new things
> Netscape has done for us this week.  They just posted the release notes
> for beta5 of Navigator 3.0 which includes *HTML* elements for
> multi-column layout and whitespace.  This of course contradicts their
> stated commitment to working on style sheets.  It is a surprise to those
> of us working in the W3C HTML working group who have assumed all along
> that the reason Netscape is there is to cooperate in the development of
> standards.  
> 
> Its also interesting that Netscape chose to post this stuff AFTER other

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:48:04 +0900
From: Ka-Ping Yee <s-ping@orange.cv.tottori-u.ac.jp>
To: Lee Daniel Crocker <lee@piclab.com>
Cc: Thomas Reardon <thomasre@microsoft.com>, www-html@w3.org
Subject: Re: Commitment to Standards
Message-Id: <31D60704.532FF2D4@sse.tottori-u.ac.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
content-length: 1248

Lee Daniel Crocker wrote:
>
> If MS really wants to make points here, don't bother preaching
> to the choir: have the balls to make a real press release
> affirming MS's commitment to standards in direct opposition
> to Netscape's clear contempt of them, and then follow through.
> Remove the page on microsoft.com that advocates &#151; and other
> illegal character entities, and fix MSIE to support the correct
> ones.  Add CSS1-based frames in addition to the old NS hack.
> Commit _now_ that MS will _not_ support the new Netscape-isms,
> put those functions into style sheets, and publicise how to use
> them correctly.  Make the Internet Assistants for Word and Excel
> generate valid HTML with stylesheets.  Commit to supporting
> PNG, so MSIE can actually read W3C's pages without gagging.

All excellent suggestions.  May i add one more -- sorely needed.

    Encourage consistently valid HTML:

    Give MSIE a source view that highlights the markup and
    *correctly* identifies valid and invalid markup, to help
    repair Netscape's corruptions of what people think is right.

I've seen the word "commitment" on Netscape's site far too many
times now.  Microsoft: this is your chance to show us what
"commitment" really means.


Ping

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:58:58 -0700
From: Thomas Reardon <thomasre@microsoft.com>
To: "'Ian S. Graham'" <igraham@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
Cc: "'www-html@w3.org'" <www-html@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Introducing NetscapeML
Message-Id:
<c=US%a=_%p=msft%l=RED-76-MSG-960630045858Z-17093@tide21.microsoft.com>
content-length: 1444

http://home.netscape.com/eng/mozilla/3.0/relnotes/windows-3.0b5.html

>----------
>From: 	Ian S. Graham[SMTP:igraham@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca]
>Sent: 	Sunday, June 30, 1996 12:44 AM
>To: 	Thomas Reardon
>Cc: 	www-html@w3.org
>Subject: 	Re: Introducing NetscapeML
>
>>
>> I want to be the first to let the world know what wonderous new things
>> Netscape has done for us this week.  They just posted the release notes
>> for beta5 of Navigator 3.0 which includes *HTML* elements for
>
>If you are going to let us know about this development, perhaps you
>could 
>post the URL where this Netscape-specific stuff is documented/described
>-- 
>it is hard to comment without it.
>
>Ian
>--
>Ian Graham .................................... ian.graham@utoronto.ca
>Information Commons                             University of Toronto 
>> 
>> I want to be the first to let the world know what wonderous new things
>> Netscape has done for us this week.  They just posted the release notes
>> for beta5 of Navigator 3.0 which includes *HTML* elements for
>> multi-column layout and whitespace.  This of course contradicts their
>> stated commitment to working on style sheets.  It is a surprise to those
>> of us working in the W3C HTML working group who have assumed all along
>> that the reason Netscape is there is to cooperate in the development of
>> standards.  
>> 
>> Its also interesting that Netscape chose to post this stuff AFTER other
>
>

--------------------------------
End of www-html-d Digest V96 Issue #118
***************************************