unsubcribe www-html-d-request@w3.org

Michigan (jjacalne@damien.edu)
Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:04:38 -1000


Message-Id: <v02110100ad51e1bd9e0a@[205.149.127.34]>
To: www-html@w3.org
From: jjacalne@damien.edu (Michigan)
Subject: unsubcribe www-html-d-request@w3.org
Cc: www-html-d-request@w3.org
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:04:38 -1000

>------------------------------
>Content-Type: text/plain
>
>www-html-d Digest                               Volume 96 : Issue 24
>
>Today's Topics:
>         Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML
>         Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML
>         Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML
>         searching for a Web editor
>         Re: searching for a Web editor
>         Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML
>         HTML as help (was Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>         Re: searching for a Web editor
>         Recommended Behavior for Image-Incapable User Agents ...
>         Re: HTML as help (was Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>         comments (Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>         ENCTYPE="multipart/mixed"
>         Re: comments (Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>         Re: HTML as help (was Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>         Re: comments (Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>         Re: HTML as help (was Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>         Re: comments (Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>         Re: comments (Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>         Re: comments (Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>
>------------------------------
>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 19:40:41 -0500
>From: Paul Prescod <papresco@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
>To: Charles Peyton Taylor <CTaylor@wposmtp.nps.navy.mil>
>Cc: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML
>Message-Id: <199602210040.TAA07479@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>content-length: 905
>
>At 03:42 PM 2/20/96 -0800, Charles Peyton Taylor wrote:
>>A question, though:  I used to think that the <html></html>
>>tags were there to let the browser software know that
>>the document was in HTML format.  But if that's so, then
>>why is it defined as a MIME type on the server?
>
>HTML documents can be processed in situations that are unrelated to server
>MIME types.  For instance, some operating systems use HTML as the standard
>online help format.  Some people use HTML files on CD-ROMs.  The issue of
>figuring out the data type of an HTML file is a little more involved than
>I've made it sound, because there is another, more explicit ways of
>indicating the HTML format (called a doctype) and other, implicit mechanisms
>like file attributes and extensions.  It is important to realize that HTML
>can be used outside of an HTTP transaction and must be designed as a
>standalone language.
>
> Paul Prescod
>
>------------------------------
>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 20:02:56 -0500 (EST)
>From: Foteos Macrides <MACRIDES@sci.wfbr.edu>
>To: papresco@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
>Cc: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML
>Message-Id: <01I1G5DMIY4M00163N@SCI.WFBR.EDU>
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
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>
>Paul Prescod <papresco@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>>At 03:42 PM 2/20/96 -0800, Charles Peyton Taylor wrote:
>>>A question, though:  I used to think that the <html></html>
>>>tags were there to let the browser software know that
>>>the document was in HTML format.  But if that's so, then
>>>why is it defined as a MIME type on the server?
>>
>>HTML documents can be processed in situations that are unrelated to server
>>MIME types.  For instance, some operating systems use HTML as the standard
>>online help format.  Some people use HTML files on CD-ROMs.  The issue of
>>figuring out the data type of an HTML file is a little more involved than
>>I've made it sound, because there is another, more explicit ways of
>>indicating the HTML format (called a doctype) and other, implicit mechanisms
>>like file attributes and extensions.  It is important to realize that HTML
>>can be used outside of an HTTP transaction and must be designed as a
>>standalone language.
>
>        Back in the good ole days, when what it now referred to as
>HTTP/0.9 was just HTTP, clients were shareware or freeware, not
>market forces, and the object was content-rich, platform-independent
>*information* sharing, the protocol did not use MIME headers, and the
><HTML> tag at the top indicated that the document was html, not plain
>text.
>                                Fote
>
>=========================================================================
> Foteos Macrides            Worcester Foundation for Biomedical Research
> MACRIDES@SCI.WFBR.EDU         222 Maple Avenue, Shrewsbury, MA 01545
>=========================================================================
>
>------------------------------
>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 01:15:15 +0000 (GMT)
>From: lilley <lilley@afs.mcc.ac.uk>
>To: CTaylor@wposmtp.nps.navy.mil (Charles Peyton Taylor)
>Cc: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML
>Message-Id: <28995.9602210115@afs.mcc.ac.uk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Length: 6284
>
>>
>> I've written a basic guide to html, meant for the users
>> here at NPS (or anyone else who cares to browse) and it
>> occured to me that a learned opinion might be helpful.
>> I would appreciate it if you would browse by:
>>
>> http://www.nps.navy.mil/internal/tutorial/q_htmlguide.html
>
>A couple of initial comments:
>
>1) Excellent idea. HTML in 10 minutes. Makes those books in the store
>"HTML in a week" seem a little, well, padded?
>
>2) "HTML ... is really just ASCII text with extra codes
>    thrown to better identify the content of the document."
>
>Yes, but please avoid saying ASCII. There is no need for it, and it
>is misleading. I appreciate that your primary audience is American, but
>then a not inconsiderable percentage of Americans speak Spanish and no
>doubt appreciate being able to put those cedillas into their text.
>
>In the context of your ten-minute guide I suggest replacing "ASCII text"
>with "plain text".
>
>2) "However, HTML is not a WYSIWYG (what-you-see-is-what-you-get)
>   format.  Each web browser may display your document slightly
>   differently, and most let the reader customize how documents are
>   displayed."
>
>Rather than put that as the end, where it sounds like admitting a problem,
>try putting it at the start of the introduction and make it into a benefit.
>Try this:
>
>   HTML is not a WYSIWYG (what-you-see-is-what-you-get) format.  It does
>   not specify what font will be used or how a page is layed out.
>   Instead it just identifies sections of text as headings, lists, and
>   so on.  This makes HTML very easy to write.  HTML is just plain text
>   with extra codes to identify the content of the document.
>
>   Remember, though, that each web browser will display your document
>   slightly differently, and most let the reader customize how documents
>   are displayed.
>
>3) You confuse tags and elements. It is probably useful to explain what
>they are. HTML is made up of elements. An element can consist of either a
>single tag, like this:
>
><hr>
>
>or a paired start tag and end tag with some stuff in the middle.
>
><h1>An important heading</h1>
>
>The stuff in the middle can itself contain nested elements.
>
>Then go on to explain about the angle brackets. this is easier to do *after*
>the reader has seen a couple of examples, wheras you do it before they have
>seen them- so they have to try and imaginge what this will look like.
>
>Introducing the idea of "nesting elements", rather than "codes inserted into
>the document",  gives people a better idea, I think, of why they cannot
>do this:
>
><a href="foo><h1>stuff</a></h1>
>
>4) "Every document should have a title."
>
>Since your guide is about writing good HTML, rather than stuff that will
>probably work, I suggest altering this to
>
>  Every document must have a title.
>
>which is what the HTML2.0 spec says. You can back this up in one sentence
>by saying that indexing engines use this information, so leaving it out
>could mean people don't find your documents.
>
>An ounce of self-interest is worth a pound of "do this to conform to
>the standard" ;-)
>
>The other points you make about titles are good.
>
>5) standard wrapper:
>
>html can be missed out in all html 2.0 documents.  Your first sentence is
>not strictly true, and "this can vary" just introduces uncertainty.
>
>I suggest you just say that the entire html document is a single element
>and the start and end tags are <html> </html>, and leave it at that. Save
>your energy for getting them to insert <head> and </head> which is much
>more important - and will become increasingly important with later
>revisions of HTML.
>
>I suggest that you introduce these by saying that the head element contains
>information about the document, which is not displayed as part of the
>document, wheras the body contains the document itself.
>
>6) </p> can always be omitted. Again, if you introduce elements early this
>becomes easy.
>
>   To put text into paragraphs, use paragraph elements:
>
>   <p>This is a pagagraph</p>
>
>   In practice the closing </p> can always be omitted.
>
>The main thing is to ensure they understand paragraphs are elements, rather
>than believing that paragraph tags introduce line breaks (which your text
>does sort of imply) and to avoid the idea that <p> separates paragraphs,
>rather than starting them.
>
>I find it handy to have an example:
>
><h1>Big Heading</h1><p>A paragraph</p>
>
>This shows them several things
>
>- yes you put a p right after the end of the previous element, to *start*
>  a paragraph
>- the line breaks and spacing in the HTL source are irrelevant
>
>I found your text on "extra lines" gave the wrong impression here.
>Rather than concentrate on the visual effect, I suggest you concentrate
>on the semantics.  Use an address or something to illustrate br, and say
>this is all one paragraph.
>
>7) Headings
>
>Good, but say "H2-H6 are the other headings,
>each being consecutively less important than the first."
>
>8) URL
>
>this is used way before being defined. People who are going to write
>HTML are probablt used to URLs from browsing, heck even from adverts.
>I suggest you put the descripotion of URLs into a "sidebar" - another
>document. This stops it interrupting the flow of text and means people
>can read that descriptionor not, as they need to.
>
>"Be aware that anchors can be placed within paragraphs ..."
>This section will also benefit from introducing elements early on.
>
>
>In general your 10 minute guide is great and just what is needed. I would
>certainly recommend it over the NCSA beginners guide, which is well past
>it's sell-by date. I hope you find my comments and suggestions helpful.
>
>
>
>--
>Chris Lilley, Technical Author and JISC representative to W3C
>+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>|  Manchester and North Training & Education Centre   ( MAN T&EC )  |
>+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Computer Graphics Unit,             Email: Chris.Lilley@mcc.ac.uk |
>| Manchester Computing Centre,        Voice: +44 161 275 6045       |
>| Oxford Road, Manchester, UK.          Fax: +44 161 275 6040       |
>| M13 9PL                            BioMOO: ChrisL                 |
>| Timezone: UTC        URI: http://info.mcc.ac.uk/CGU/staff/lilley/ |
>+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>------------------------------
>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 07:27:05
>From: ballonyi@irf.hu
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: searching for a Web editor
>Message-Id: <199602210618.HAA15556@ind.eunet.hu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
>content-length: 488
>
>I'm searching for a program which help me in editing Web pages.
>There's a shareware one on the net?
>
>Regards,
>  Ballonyi Gyula
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>IRF Softwarehouse Inc.                 Tel/FAX:   +(361)-266-78-68
>HUNGARY, 1056-Budapest                 Email:     Ballonyi@irf.hu
>Molnar u. 21                                      bgy@westel450.hu
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>------------------------------
>Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 22:53:24 -0800
>From: boo@best.com (Walter Ian Kaye)
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: searching for a Web editor
>Message-Id: <v02120d01ad507031055e@[205.149.180.135]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>content-length: 1050
>
>At 7:27a 02/21/96, ballonyi@irf.hu wrote:
>
>>I'm searching for a program which help me in editing Web pages.
>>There's a shareware one on the net?
>
>
>There's lots! You didn't mention what platform you are wanting it for, but
>there are editors for several platforms. Search your favorite archive --
>for Mac users there is an /html directory under /text at Info-Mac sites,
>for example.
>
>And synchronicity... I just got an idea today for writing one in MS Word
>6.0. I know there is already Internet Assistant, but people say it's slow.
>The idea I got today, when implemented, will be super fast (and
>extensible). Heh, and it was just a few days ago I was telling someone that
>I'd probably never use Word for HTML! Funny how ya just never know... <g>
>
>-Walter
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>    Walter Ian Kaye <boo@best.com>     Programmer - Excel, AppleScript,
>          Mountain View, CA                         ProTERM, FoxPro, HTML
> http://www.natural-innovations.com/     Musician - Guitarist, Songwriter
>
>------------------------------
>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:55:28 +0100
>From: mau@beatles.cselt.stet.it (Maurizio Codogno)
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML
>Message-Id: <9602210755.AA04921@beatles.cselt.stet.it>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Md5: bAsB3DL6O7Z+T0y2G2rtwQ==
>content-length: 770
>
>lilley answered Charles Peyton Taylor:
>
>% > A question, though:  I used to think that the <html></html>
>% > tags were there to let the browser software know that
>% > the document was in HTML format.  But if that's so, then
>% > why is it defined as a MIME type on the server?
>%
>% The html start and end tags are used to bracket the document instance. SGML
>% assumes a hierarchical model, and the html element (consisting of
>% <html>stuff</html>) is at the top of the tree.
>
>Just out of curiosity - is there some browser which actually stops
>processing if it finds a </html> tag? When I first approached HTML, I
>thought it would have been a nice way to add information at the end
>of a document without let them be displayed. But this seems not to be
>the case.
>
>..mau.
>
>------------------------------
>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 00:10:35 -0800
>From: boo@best.com (Walter Ian Kaye)
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: HTML as help (was Re: Really Quick Guide to Good HTML)
>Message-Id: <v02120d03ad507c0bce2a@[205.149.180.135]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>content-length: 453
>
>At 7:40p 02/20/96, Paul Prescod wrote:
>
>>some operating systems use HTML as the standard online help format.
>
>
>Hmm, very interesting. Which OS's are those?
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>    Walter Ian Kaye <boo@best.com>     Programmer - Excel, AppleScript,
>          Mountain View, CA                         ProTERM, FoxPro, HTML
> http://www.natural-innovations.com/     Musician - Guitarist, Songwriter
>
>------------------------------
>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 06:24:40 -0500
>From: Walt Houser <houser@cpcug.org>
>To: ballonyi@irf.hu
>Cc: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: searching for a Web editor
>Message-Id: <199602211124.GAA20610@cpcug.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>content-length: 1054
>
>Scott Mohnkern supports a list of Web Editors at <A
>HREF="http://cpcug.org:80//user/mohnkern/htmled.html">Mohnkern's List of