Re: www-html-d Digest V96 #259

Xiangdong Yu (yu@lcc.icm.ac.cn)
Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:43:47 +1030


Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 14:43:47 +1030
Message-Id: <199608310413.OAA00454@lcc.icm.ac.cn>
To: www-html@w3.org
From: yu@lcc.icm.ac.cn (Xiangdong Yu)
Subject: Re: www-html-d Digest V96 #259

>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>
>www-html-d Digest				Volume 96 : Issue 259
>
>Today's Topics:
>	 Re: What are the problems with IDML? (fwd)
>	 history.go(-1) question
>	 Re: What are the problems with IDML? (fwd)
>	 RE: Frames Are Improving
>	 RE: Background Soundtracks (fwd)
>	 BGSOUND, no need for it (fwd)
>	 Re: What are the problems with IDML?
>	 Validation
>	 Re: Frames - does anyone like them?
>	 RE: Frames Are Improving
>	 Re: Frames - does anyone like them?
>	 Re: history.go(-1) question
>	 RE: Frames Are Improving
>	 Re: Problems/Question with Cougar
>	 Re: Problems/Question with Cougar
>
>Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:21:29 -0700 (PDT)
>From: MegaZone <megazone@livingston.com>
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: What are the problems with IDML? (fwd)
>Message-Id: <199608240021.RAA06778@server.livingston.com>
>Content-Type: text
>
>Once upon a time Doug Donohoe shaped the electrons to say...
>>If I put META in the body of my HTML document, neither Netscape
>>nor IE choke (they seem quite complacent about it, as a matter of
>
>That is because neither of them are strictly adherent to the standard.
>Netscape doesn't puke if I put <TITLE> in the body either for example.
>
>>fact).  So, what exactly _does_ break when I put
>>META inside the BODY?  If 99% of HTML is viewed through these
>
>1. *ANY* SGML based tool that uses the standard DTD.
>2. Many editors that aren't SGML bases are smart enough to complain about
>that.
>3. Several tools such as Weblint will complain about it.
>
>>two browsers, who cares if I put META in the "wrong" place?
>>I know SGML or HTML parsers will complain, but what does
>>it break in the real world?  E.g., what problems does it cause?
>
>1. HotJava is SGML based.
>2. Panorama PRO is SGML based.
>3. HoTMetaL PRO is SGML based.
>
>A great number of sites use validators, most of which are SGML based.
>
>There is a group in the W3C working on moving the web towards generic SGML
>compliance, so it may not break today, but don't bet on the future.  Any
>scheme that violates SGML isn't going to be popular, nor long lived.  I
>would simply forbid it completely from Livingston - as Webmaster such is
>my choice.  And I have friends are several other major industrial sites
>who feel the same way as I.  One or two sites doesn't matter too much,
>but it adds up.  Especially when most sites still don't care about this
>at all - the average user isn't going to use any indexing at all.  It is
>really only a smally number of sites that care about such things.
>
>-MZ
>--
>Livingston Enterprises - Chair, Department of Interstitial Affairs
>Phone: 800-458-9966 510-426-0770 FAX: 510-426-8951 megazone@livingston.com
>For support requests: support@livingston.com  <http://www.livingston.com/> 
>Snail mail: 6920 Koll Center Parkway  #220, Pleasanton, CA 94566
>
>Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:53:04 -0700
>From: Alan Thomson <at@wavenet.com>
>To: www-scripts <www-scripts@tahoenet.com>, www-html@w3.org
>Subject: history.go(-1) question
>Message-ID: <321E5270.7F92@wavenet.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

>
>I understand how to do the history function with buttons in forms:
>
>	<input type=button value="Back" onClick="history.go(-1)">
>
>But, I'd like to do the same thing with am image map. Has anyone done this?
>
>Thanks,
>Al
>
>Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 18:19:04 -0700 (PDT)
>From: MegaZone <megazone@livingston.com>
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: What are the problems with IDML? (fwd)
>Message-Id: <199608240119.SAA07597@server.livingston.com>
>Content-Type: text
>
>Once upon a time Doug Donohoe shaped the electrons to say...
>>What tools?  Are you referring to enhancements to existing
>>HTML editors?  I know most support META now, but are they going
>>to add support for the various META schemas that people use?
>
>There are many tools that are free/shareware and that evolve very fast.
>Most of their authors are skilled and respond fast to new developments.
>So yes, I believe that if a real standard came to be editors would quickly
>support them.  And if it was backed by the W3C I expect major players like
>SoftQuad would add support just as quickly as they are support for new
>tags - which is usually very quickly.
>
>And many of the editors that do support META also support user defined
>macros - so a skilled user (and people who care about indexing usually are
>the skilled ones) can create macros to do the headers.
>
>Aside from that, it wouldn't be a tough job for Perl to generate the
>headers and add them to a file.  If I get some time (hahaha  I've pulled a
>couple 50+ hour shifts this week, like I have time...) I might whip a basic
>one up.  (Anyone else with a more realistic schedule is welcome to, since
>the realist in me knows I have things I *need* to do that I don't have time
>for, let alont side projects...  I probably shouldn't be reading this list
>for that matter...)
>
>>True.  Is there a specification or draft which describes what
>>these config/rules files look like?  I imagine that would be
>
>It would be up to the author, I don't know of any draft - there really isn't
>a standard for tools.  I was thinking that the author who created a tool
>for parsing out the data would design the tool with an external rule set
>instead of hardcoding it.  Well, I would given the time and inclination to
>create such a bot.  That would make it expandable without needing to hack
>the source every time a new rev of some standard comes out.
>
>>complex to specify all the types of data validation one might
>
>Sure, if you want to start making it completely idiot proof a spider could
>be required to do a great deal of checking.  But most spiders today don't
>bother, the basic assumption is that authors know what they want to ad.
>
>If you are talking about the tool for creating the tags, the content should
>be up to the author, but you could have it generate prompts, like:
>address:
>city:
>state:
>zip:
>
>Ad nausem, and the tool would take those fields and generate a location
>tag string from it.
>
>>I'm sure you know, but I still feel that putting stuff that belongs
>>together in seperate META tags introduces more problems.  For example,
>
>I think the only problem it introduces is gluing the data back together.
>
>>when writing HTML, I mess up tables far more often than <IMG>
>>tags because tables require beginning and ending tags.  In IMG,
>
></tr></td> and </th> are optional.  I'm not sure if </table> is off the
>top of my head.
>
>My point is, forgetting a '"' can be just as debilitating to a document as
>forgetting </table>.  I have seen pages where hunks of text are missing
>because Netscape was looking for the closing quote on a tag.  Or pages where
>slews of text were made an anchor all due to one missing quote.
>
>And error is an error, and the smallest error can be just as catastrophic
>as a seemingly 'big' error.
>
>>the only thing I usally get wrong is forgetting a closing quote.
>
>That can be a big 'only', it can ruin an entire page if the wrong quote is
>missing.
>
>>All I'm saying is that for a while longer, people are going
>>to be writing this stuff by hand -- and with copying & pasting and
>>moving stuff around, you are more likely to mess something up
>>when you have to keep 8 tags in a block versus one.  Perhaps this
>
>I'm probably not a good example, since I've been playing with HTML for 5 or
>so years - from the very early days when a friend had a friend at CERN
>who told us about this cool new thing some guy named Tim was working on. ;-)
>(It's a small net after all, it's a...)  I write almost all of my HTML by
>hand in emacs, and 95%+ of the time it validates first pass.  For the 
>remainder most of the errors are typos, only a few are mistakes in tag
>placement.
>
>But the real point is the word 'validate' - I don't trust myself, I validate
>my work.  I run all of my pages through HTML-Check and Weblint.  Validators
>are, IMHO, a vital part of the authoring process.  They are like spell 
>checkers for word processing, using 'perl -cw' on a new Perl script, or
>compiling C with -Wall (or -Wall -pendantic) to check the fine points.
>
>I say that most of the skilled users won't be making too many mistakes,
>but they, of course, will.  And those mistakes would then be caught by
>validation tools.  SGML validators like HTML-Check would ensure the tags
>had the correct structure, and some Perl script could check for content
>syntax.  Maybe an extension to the already popular Weblint, or a new 
>tool similar to Weblint but just for index tags.  Weblint is Perl and
>easily extensible.
>
>>will not be a problem when the HTML editors mature.  Still, are
>>the editors going to have support for all the various META schemas
>>out there?
>
>All the META schemes?  Probably not.  The one or two most popular, the
>de facto standards, probably.  And if they have any META support, they
>will probably allow user configured tags.  For instance, Netscape Enterprise
>Server uses META tags for the built in cataloging agent.  And I believe the
>built in Verity Search Engine can utilize them too - since I'll be installing
>that server real soon now (just waiting on the new Sparc to arrive) and I'll
>need to add meta tags to make full use of it, I'd MUCH prefer a sheme that
>used the same kinds of tags the existing server users.  So I don't end up
>with tag soup, one set of tags for each schema.
>
>>both ways).  If someone has experience using META for more than
>>just keywords and description, please let me know (and send
>
>Netscape Enterprise Server uses"
><META NAME="Classification" CONTENT="Your classification here">
><META NAME="Author" CONTENT="Author's name here">
>
>It allows the catalog agent to sort based on classification and/or author.
>I haven't had hands on with this yet but the documentation hints that other
>META tags could be used as it mentions a MetaData directive for the 
>filter.conf file used by the agent which can sort/filter based on "any
>meta-data listed in META tags in the HTML document."
>
>-MZ
>--
>Livingston Enterprises - Chair, Department of Interstitial Affairs
>Phone: 800-458-9966 510-426-0770 FAX: 510-426-8951 megazone@livingston.com
>For support requests: support@livingston.com  <http://www.livingston.com/> 
>Snail mail: 6920 Koll Center Parkway  #220, Pleasanton, CA 94566
>On Fri, 23 Aug 1996 14:46:02 -0600, Jason O'Brien said:
>> Using relative widths for frame design does very little good anyway
>> -- the content in the frame is usually designed to fit into a certain
>> area (such as a corporate logo) and different monitor size either
>> fits this content perfectly in the area as it was intended to be or
>> chops off part of the content or puts too much white space.   I don't
>> think frames have much in future in web design.
>
>This seems to be a PC-centric way of looking at things, where folks
>allow the UA to take over all their screen real estate (perhaps because
>they live within a single-tasking computing paradigm).  But this is
>tourist behavior; those who use the web on a daily basis are far more
>likely to set their UA window at some fraction of their screen real
>estate so they can use other areas for xterms, etc.
>
>I know, I know: 20" monitors and 24-bit frame buffers ain't the norm.
>But there is not much else one can do but do the best they can with
>what they have, for none of us control the world, or the web.
>
>I use a 7.25"x7.25" UA viewing area (Netscape.TopLevelShell.geometry:
>=631x790) because that is a comfortable size to use for reading text,
>and design my pages (both frame and noframe) to scale to the reader's
>viewing area, whatever that may be.  I avoid logos and fancy gifs that
>will not scale, and as a result my pages look okay across a variation
>of viewing areas from 4.50"Wx4.00"H to <ugh>full monitor size</ugh>.
>
>HTML 3.2 and even frames can serve us well if we put a little thought
>into our pages.  Nothing is going to work well if we don't.
>
>Regards...
>Fred
>
>__
>fepotts@fepco.com
>http://www.fepco.com/
>ACS Publishing/FEPCO Holdings, Inc.
>3906 West Ina Road, Suite 200-211
>Tucson, AZ 85741
>
>Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:14:19 -0700 (PDT)
>From: MegaZone <megazone@livingston.com>
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: RE: Background Soundtracks (fwd)
>Message-Id: <199608240214.TAA08298@server.livingston.com>
>Content-Type: text
>
>Once upon a time Jason O'Brien shaped the electrons to say...
>>discussing -- the issue is embedding a sound to start when the page opens   
>>which needs to run seamlessly in the background without any kind of   
>>obstrusive control bar -- for example, one of the corporate web sites   
>
>Some of us do not want to have sounds played automatically - for me it
>would play on the server down the hall, or 30 miles away if I'm on my X
>tube at home.  I completely detest pages that have sounds that play 
>automatically and I've been requesting that NS not support this, or that,
>if they do, they have a three way toggle for users:
>Play auto.
>Prompt user Y/N
>Never play.
>
>I think BGSOUND is a tag almost on par with BLINK for evilness in its
>current MSIE implementaion.
>
>-MZ
>--
>Livingston Enterprises - Chair, Department of Interstitial Affairs
>Phone: 800-458-9966 510-426-0770 FAX: 510-426-8951 megazone@livingston.com
>For support requests: support@livingston.com  <http://www.livingston.com/> 
>Snail mail: 6920 Koll Center Parkway  #220, Pleasanton, CA 94566
>
>Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 19:19:48 -0700 (PDT)
>From: MegaZone <megazone@livingston.com>
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: BGSOUND, no need for it (fwd)
>Message-Id: <199608240219.TAA08327@server.livingston.com>
>Content-Type: text
>
>Once upon a time Imagination's End shaped the electrons to say...
>>I thought HTML was supposed to be independent of the system.  OBJECT 
>
>It hasn't been for a LONG time.  <I> for instance - some systems cannot
>do italics because they have no font to do so.  Sometimes they try something
>else, but it still is not italics. (IMHO they shouldn't try something
>else with I, but should with EM as it says nothing about how to do it).
>
>>and Java tags are, since they have alternatives.  What is the 
>>alternative, or rendering method, of a BGSOUND supposed to.  Is a 
>>computer without a sound card supposed to open a new window and draw 
>>the waveform of the sound? :)
>
>They just don't do it.  Like BGCOLOR - if I am on a B&W screen ang BGCOLOR
>is red, I certainly don't see red.  Or better if I am on Lynx I don't see
>colors at all, my telnet window is B&W pure.
>
>-MZ
>--
>Livingston Enterprises - Chair, Department of Interstitial Affairs
>Phone: 800-458-9966 510-426-0770 FAX: 510-426-8951 megazone@livingston.com
>For support requests: support@livingston.com  <http://www.livingston.com/> 
>Snail mail: 6920 Koll Center Parkway  #220, Pleasanton, CA 94566
>
>Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 21:07:37 -0800
>From: Jim Taylor <JHTaylor@videodiscovery.com>
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: What are the problems with IDML?
>Message-Id: <s21e1d9f.065@videodiscovery.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>Content-Disposition: inline
>
>>>> Doug Donohoe <donohoe@emerge.com> 08/22/96 09:47am >>>
>>
>>So, yes, I agree that META could be used to instantiate the
>>IDML data model.   And yes, you can write a robot to understand
>>this format.
>>
>>However a couple of open questions:  
>>
>>	1) Which would you prefer to write as a user (after all, 
>>	   it's the user we're trying to help!)?
>>	2) Which would you prefer to parse as a robot writer [1]?
>
>Give me break! The very important decision on how to design a standard
>is determined by whether it takes someone 2 hours instead of 2.1 hours
>to write a parser?? Pasting meta tags together is absolutely trivial, and
>(as has been pointed out) people writing this stuff will have tools to help
>them do it, so both of these arguments are without merit.
>
>There are more important considerations (some of which have already
>been pointed out).
>
>1) Product information (with more than one product in a document) is not
>metainformation so it doesn't belong in meta tags, and in any case it
>couldn't be put there without some dorky numbering/id system
>  <META NAME="ID-PRODUCT_NAME#1" VALUE="Jacks">
>  <META NAME="ID-PRODUCT_NAME#2" VALUE="Ball">
>
>2) Why go to all the trouble of duplicating information (product name,
>description, price, etc.) that may already be in the document in
>human-readable form?
>
>3) Some of the IDML information is already provided by de-facto META
>tags. Admittedly, these aren't terribly standardized, but why bury useful
>information about the publisher, location, phone number, etc. in IDML tags
>when it could be standardized and shared via meta tags used by many
>different robots/agents/whatever.
>
>4) If there really are merchants with 600,000 products to catalog, surely
>they don't want their product information scattered over hundreds or
>thousands of documents buried in META or ID tags. IDML should use the
>established HTML hyperlink mechanism instead of reinventing it with a
>"url-redirect" attribute.
>
>5) (Related to point 4) Why should browsers be slowed down by
>plowing through ID tags that have little to do with content and nothing to
>do with presentation?
>
>Suggestions:
>
>IDML is already broken into four groups. Three of these groups
>(publisher, info, system) contain meta information that probably belongs
>in META tags or separate documents. This is information such as
>publisher name, location, keywords, robot instructions, etc. Since IDML
>has proposed specific formats for these, then all that's required is a meta
>tag identifying the document as IDML compliant, thus vouchsafing that
>information in the meta tags is in the format expected by an IDML parser.
>Then the information is also available to other parsers that look at meta
>tags.
>
>The fourth IDML group consists of product information. This really can't
>be shoehorned into meta tags, but instead of making way too many new
>attributes, the IDML guys could create classes. This allows a number of
>things to work nicely. Span tags could be used to identify existing text:
>  <span class="id-product-name>A Hard Day's Night</span> 
>  <span class="id-product-description>Released on CD in 1988.</span>
>  $<span class="id-product-price>13.47</span>
>
>(Is this a misuse of span?)
>
>Non-visible information such as currency, keywords, etc. could still be
>contained in IDML tags. Obviously many people will want all the
>information stored in one place.  Instead of using the very goofy
>"url-redirect" attribute, they should use the established id attribute to
>identify each product (in place of the part-number attribute) and then put
>a link element in the header:
>
>  <link rel="IDML" href="whatever">
>
>This is a quick spew at the end of a very long day, so it may not be
>coherent or well thought out, but it's certainly more consistent with
>established standard ways of doing these things than the current IDML
>proposal.
>
>______________________________________________
>Jim "The Frog" Taylor, Director of Information Technology
><mailto:jhtaylor@videodiscovery.com>
>Videodiscovery, Inc. - Multimedia Education for Science and Math
>Seattle, WA, 206-285-5400 <http://www.videodiscovery.com/vdyweb>
>
>
> 
>Once upon a time MegaZone <megazone@livingston.com> shaped many
>electrons, of which a few amounted to:
>
>: But the real point is the word 'validate' - I don't trust myself, I validate
>: my work.  I run all of my pages through HTML-Check and Weblint.  Validators
>: are, IMHO, a vital part of the authoring process.  They are like spell 
>: checkers for word processing, using 'perl -cw' on a new Perl script, or
>: compiling C with -Wall (or -Wall -pendantic) to check the fine points.
>
>My copy of "html-check" (and my newer copy of "html-ncheck") is a
>little script that uses the general purpose SGML parsing tool "sgmls"
>of James Clark (and the newer "nsgmls") in diagnostic mode to operate
>on (1) the HTML file under consideration and (2) two "standard" files
>(available from W3C and elsewhere) that are required to "define" HTML.
>
>Are there things called "html-check" or "html-ncheck" that are not
>based on James Clark's "sgmls" or "nsgmls"?
>
>                                   -- Bill
>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1976 10:49:39 -0700
>From: Walter Ian Kaye <boo@best.com>
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: Frames - does anyone like them?
>Message-Id: <v0300780e88a65192cb35@[205.149.180.135]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>At 9:21p -0700 08/21/96, David Perrell wrote:
>>Walter Ian Kaye wrote:
>>> And one of the reasons that neither of my 2 frame-enabled pages
>>function
>>> in that manner.
>>
>>Do you mean in the manner of making a site more easily
>>navigable, or of use with JavaScript for maintaining control
>>of the window?
>
>The former. I currently am only using JavaScript for the onMouseOver=
>attribute (sort of like a "ToolTips" thing).
>
>>> My Walter's Web page does 'target="_parent"' in all its
>>> links, so it works more like a "normal" page;
>>
>>Targeting parents? Is this "normal" these days? Personally, I like to
>>target the _top with redundant framesets. Blow away the whole window.
>
>Not sure what you mean by redundant framesets, but _parent and _top are
>rather similar... I can't remember the exact distinction offhand.
>
>>> and my new AppleScript OSAX
>>> page <http://www.natural-innovations.com/as/osaxref.html> only
>>fills the
>>> main frame with its own categories and nothing else.
>>
>>I needed to scroll the top frame to see the header for the second.
>>Yet the bottom frame is very spacey.
>
>Odd -- it's just the opposite on my system! Here I've got the bottom frame
>tight, and the top frame spacey. Can anyone explain how that can be?
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>    Walter Ian Kaye <boo@best.com>     Programmer - Excel, AppleScript,
>          Mountain View, CA                         ProTERM, FoxPro, HTML
> http://www.natural-innovations.com/     Musician - Guitarist, Songwriter
>At 07:16 PM 8/23/96 -0600, F. E. Potts wrote:
>> > This seems to be a PC-centric way of looking at things, where folks
>> > allow the UA to take over all their screen real estate (perhaps
>> > because they live within a single-tasking computing paradigm).
>
>On Sat, 24 Aug 1996 04:24:08 -0600, Paul Prescod responded:
>> Is this a troll? There are more multitasking operating systems
>> available for the PC than any other platform. The real point has
>> nothing to do with CPU type and everything to do with monitor size.
>> 15" is the standard because of the price.
>
>"Troll"? No, just my Unix bigotry showing. :-)  And yes, I am aware
>that most of the monitors folks have are around 14" or 15" in size
>because of price considerations.  Just as most folks only have 256
>colors.
>
>What it gets down to is priorities.  If a large TV, regular visits to
>restaurants, and a new car every three years is where your priorities
>lie, that is your business, not mine.  And if this results in your only
>being able to afford a 15" monitor for your home computer, that's the
>way it goes.  All I can do is design my pages to scale properly so you
>can utilize their content as well as possible within the limitations of
>your hardware/software.
>
>I have noticed during this thread on frames that the attitude of many
>seems to be that since frames are often poorly implemented, they should
>not be used; or even better, they should be banned.  This is poor
>thinking: you might as well say that since HTML is so often poorly
>implemented, it too should not be used.
>
>Look around the web: you will find that many of the sites, especially
>the more "popular" ones, have a tendency to have lousy markup, and even
>worse design.  Over the last year or so friends have asked me for my
>opinion of their pages, and when I mildly suggest (as often I do) that
>they run them through one of the validation services, the usual
>response is, "Why?  It looks good on Netscape, and that's what most
>people use."
>
>So what can you do?  Nothing, really, except to design your pages to be
>as usable as possible for as many folks as possible, and let the rest
>of it go.  As I noted before, the real problem is not monitor size, but
>poor use of the tools currently available.
>
>fep
>
>--
>fepotts@fepco.com
>http://www.fepco.com/
>
>(PS: CPUs were never mentioned, Paul.  When I say PC-centric, I am
>basically referring to Wintel; I myself run BSD on two Intel boxes, as
>well as 4.1.3 and 2.5 on RISC machines, so do understand these matters
>slightly :-)
>Walter Ian Kaye wrote:
>> > > and my new AppleScript OSAX page
>> > > <http://www.natural-innovations.com/as/osaxref.html> only fills
>> > > the main frame with its own categories and nothing else.
>
>David Perrell wrote:
>> > I needed to scroll the top frame to see the header for the second.
>> > Yet the bottom frame is very spacey.
>
>Walter Ian Kaye replied:
>> Odd -- it's just the opposite on my system! Here I've got the bottom
>> frame tight, and the top frame spacey. Can anyone explain how that
>> can be?
>
>For what it's worth,
><http://www.natural-innovations.com/as/osaxref.html> works beautifully
>with my copy of Netscape 3.0 (Solaris 2.4) using a 7.25'x7.25" viewing
>area.  A very successful page, IMHO. :-)
>
>When running a test resize of the viewing area, the page worked fine
>from full monitor size (20") down to 5"x5"; below a 5" width the bottom
>frame needed a scrollbar so as not to lose the "Go" button.
>
>All in all, I find this page to be a fine example of how frames should
>be designed so as to be reasonably independent of monitor size.  IOW,
>this page can handle a lot of user abuse before things start to get out
>of hand.
>
>We wouldn't be having this discussion of frames if more frame pages
>were as successful as this one is.
>
>fep
>
>--
>fepotts@fepco.com
>http://www.fepco.com/
>
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 21:13:53 +0200
>From: galactus@stack.urc.tue.nl (Arnoud "Galactus" Engelfriet)
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: history.go(-1) question
>Message-ID: <xR1Hy4uYOhMI089yn@stack.urc.tue.nl>
>
>In article <321E5270.7F92@wavenet.com>,
>Alan Thomson <at@wavenet.com> wrote:
>> I understand how to do the history function with buttons in forms:
>> 
>> 	<input type=3Dbutton value=3D"Back" onClick=3D"history.go(-1)">
>
>This only works in browsers where Javascript is enabled. This is
>about the only way to get the button to act as a _real_ back
>button.
>
>ANY other method, including fiddling with HTTP_REFERER actually
>creates a *forward* link to the previous document. Abigail has written
>a very comprehensive document explaining why you can't do this in
>HTML, and it applies equally well to imagemaps.
>
><URL:http://edbo.com/abigail/HTML/Misc/back_button.html>.
>
>Galactus
>
>-- 
>To find out more about PGP, send mail with HELP PGP in the SUBJECT line to me.
>E-mail: galactus@stack.urc.tue.nl - Please PGP encrypt your mail if you can.
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>
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:23:06 -0600
>From: fepotts@fepco.com (F. E. Potts)
>To: papresco@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca
>Cc: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: RE: Frames Are Improving
>Message-Id: <96Aug24.142621mdt.18433@gw2.fepco.com>
>
>At 12:34 PM 8/24/96 -0600, F. E. Potts wrote:
>> > Look around the web: you will find that many of the sites,
>> > especially the more "popular" ones, have a tendency to have lousy
>> > markup, and even worse design.  Over the last year or so friends
>> > have asked me for my opinion of their pages, and when I mildly
>> > suggest (as often I do) that they run them through one of the
>> > validation services, the usual response is, "Why?  It looks good on
>> > Netscape, and that's what most people use."
>
>On Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:01:25 -0600, Paul Prescod replied:
>> I think the obvious response is: "Not for long."
>
>Yeah, I guess you're right -- we'll all probably be moving over to
>Amaya soon. <g>
>
>Actually, if Netscape does lose out to M$, it will be through its own
>fault.  They once had a lot of backing from the web community, but
>through arrogance and things like blink and cookies and bloat and
>tag-madness lost many folk's respect.
>
>But I don't see M$ doing any better, and of course at this time they
>are basically restricted to the tourist market.  Certainly they are not
>coming up with anything I would be able to run -- unless I bought a
>Windoz box.  And that ain't likely.
>
>-fep
>
>--
>fepotts@fepco.com
>http://www.fepco.com/
>
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1976 12:43:53 -0700
>From: Walter Ian Kaye <boo@best.com>
>To: www-html@w3.org
>Subject: Re: Problems/Question with Cougar
>Message-Id: <v0300781688a66d5b525b@[205.149.180.135]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>At 4:15p -0600 08/23/96, Imagination's End wrote:
>>> TD { background : red }
>>> in my style sheet, and <TD BGCOLOR="blue"> in my table, which color
>>> should this table cell get?
>>
>>That makes senses, but, what happens if you have:
>>
>><TD STYLE=" TD { background: red }" BGCOLOR="blue">
>>
>>What color SHOULD the cell get.  Granted I'll admit this is probably
>>just stupid coding, and that if you specify both background and
>>bgcolor they should both be the same.
>
>My guess would be:
>
>  Priority 1 = local style
>  Priority 2 = general style
>  Priority 3 = local attribute
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>    Walter Ian Kaye <boo@best.com>     Programmer - Excel, AppleScript,
>          Mountain View, CA                         ProTERM, FoxPro, HTML
> http://www.natural-innovations.com/     Musician - Guitarist, Songwriter
>In article <199608231858.NAA20978@schenectady.ecn.purdue.edu>,
>Jonathan L Neuenschwander <jonathan@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
>> > I would guess the other way around - that the general assumption is that
>> > STYLE information overrides markup information.  That way the user's
>> > stylesheet has ultimate authority.
>> 
>> I tend to agree.  When I include markup style, it's for the benefit of those
>> browsers that do not support stylesheets.  If the browser is capable of
>> using a stylesheet, the stylesheet should take precedence.
>
>That's only a valid argument as long as we're in this transition
>stage. Once we have full style sheet support in major browsers, do
>you still think the style sheet should take precedence over BGCOLOR?
>
>Galactus
>
>-- 
>To find out more about PGP, send mail with HELP PGP in the SUBJECT line to me.
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