W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-forms@w3.org > June 2005

Re: [whatwg] Re: modal and modeless windows

From: Karl Pongratz <karlhp@karlhp.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 10:41:20 +0300
Message-ID: <42C0FF20.2060903@karlhp.com>
To: Matthew Raymond <mattraymond@earthlink.net>
CC: WHAT WG List <whatwg@whatwg.org>, www-forms@w3.org, dean@w3.org

Matthew Raymond wrote:

> Karl Pongratz wrote:
>
>> Matthew Raymond wrote:
>>
>>>   So I ask you, for this example, where is the benefit of modal 
>>> windows?
>>
>>
>> I am using the current approach you describe, and as long as you have 
>> only a single additional window (the edit form) open it wouldn't be a 
>> problem, except if you want the user to explicitly complete a task, 
>> then modal would be required.
>
>
>    I'm going to be lazy and ask you to provide the use case, since 
> you're the one claiming one exists in the first place.
>
> > In case of the addresses modal may not be
>
>> required, it depends if you want to allow the user to delete a 
>> contact while the same contact is open in the edit form.
>
>
>    Simple way around that. Put the delete button in the editing window.
>
>> It probably wont harm something in this case but it may in others.
>
>
>    /me coughs in a manner that sounds very much like the words "use 
> case".
>
>> The problem starts in the edit form, if you want yet to open another 
>> window, lets say you want to attach a file to the address which is 
>> opened in the edit window, within the opened edit window you open a 
>> HTML File Manager. So you have 3 windows open, the address view in 
>> the main web browser window, the edit form in a new window (without 
>> chrome)
>
>
>    Every indication is that chromeless windows are on their way out.

I would be very sad if that would happen. Its currently the only way to 
keep forms out of history and to unlock them from the back/next button.
So I would suggest to keep them and improve them rather than removing them.

>
> > and the File Manager in another
>
>> new window (without chrome). Wouldn't you use at least a modal window 
>> in case when you open the File Manager, if modal Windows would exist?
>
>
>    Assuming the address can only be deleted by opening it in an 
> address editing window and pressing "delete", you have no use case in 
> this situation, since the address can't be deleted until you return 
> from the file manager. I would consider that this might be a problem 
> in other situations, but I wonder if there aren't simple workarounds 
> for it.
>
>> The File Manager is just one case, I face this problem many times 
>> where for an external edit form it would be convenient to open a 
>> modal sub window.
>
>
>    So your use case for modal windows is that there are many 
> convenient situations where you'd want to open a modal window...

>
>> So, Xforms may be a solution in that case if you don't require being 
>> the first window you open to be modal. By the way, I am simulating 
>> modal windows within the edit forms I use, but it is definitely a 
>> dirty hack to simulate multi web browser and multi os modal windows.
>
>
>    Yeah, hacks like this run the risk of conflicting with native UI 
> conventions, I'll give you that. However, it is widely accepted that 
> modal UI is to be avoided anyway.

I have no objection to avoid them if they are not really required. 
Though what doing in the rare cases where you can't avoid them, I guess 
Apple applications are still using modal windows in the one or other 
case, and they will remain for another decade or two. Or is it different?

>
> .
>
Received on Tuesday, 28 June 2005 07:41:18 GMT

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