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RE: [Fwd: Re: XForms: Question about tax form example]

From: Mark Birbeck <mark.birbeck@x-port.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:46:44 +0200
Message-ID: <97F7F33C-FA87-4AEA-BDD3-145287886BA1@S009>
To: "'Erik Bruchez'" <erik@bruchez.org>, <www-forms@w3.org>

Hi Erik,

I think you are right.

The *intention* of xf:label -- as you say -- was to provide a label *for*
something. Although this means that xf:label could be extended to other
elements (as it has been to xf:group, and could even be to xh2:section, for
example), it doesn't change the fact that it is something that is applied to
its parent. It therefore doesn't mean anything to allow it to be liberally
sprinkled across a document. Worse than that, it would not technically be an
XForms document, since it does not match the schema -- regardless of whether
it works or not.

Authors who want to render some text in a 'host-language--independent' way,
can use the following syntax:

  <xf:output value="'Hello, mum!'" />

This means that your XForms mark-up could be placed unchanged into an host
language.

Mark Birbeck
CEO
x-port.net Ltd.

e: Mark.Birbeck@x-port.net
t: +44 (0) 20 7689 9232
w: http://www.formsPlayer.com/
b: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/

Download our XForms processor from
http://www.formsPlayer.com/ 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-forms-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:www-forms-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Erik Bruchez
> Sent: 16 June 2005 06:10
> To: www-forms@w3.org
> Subject: [Fwd: Re: XForms: Question about tax form example]
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I was fairly firm in my belief that xforms:label must be 
> within a control, but apparently some think otherwise, and 
> implementations appear to allow randomly placed xforms:label elements.
> 
> It seemed to me that the idea behind xforms:label was to be a 
> label for a specific control, not just a generic mechanism to 
> display a label, this based on the following text from the spec:
> 
> "8.3.3 The label Element - This required element labels the 
> *containing form control* with a descriptive label."
> 
> Whatever the spec actually says, I don't really see the 
> benefit of using xforms:label outside of a control. You can 
> use xhtml:label instead, or just some other constructs from 
> the host language.
> 
> Then what about xhtml:hint, xhtml:help, and xhtml:alert? Can 
> they also be used outside of controls?
> 
> Can anybody shed some light on this question? See below the 
> relevant message from netscape.public.mozilla.xml.
> 
> -Erik
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: XForms: Question about tax form example
> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 12:12:41 -0500
> From: Aaron Reed <aaronr@us.ibm.com>
> Organization: Another Netscape Collabra Server User
> Newsgroups: netscape.public.mozilla.xml
> References: <d6sb66$ian6@ripley.netscape.com> 
> <d72b5i$ci01@ripley.netscape.com> <d7pn1i$ka513@ripley.netscape.com>
> 
> Erik Bruchez wrote:
>  > Aaron Reed wrote:
>  >
>  >> We created this particular XForm to give an example of 
> what a user's  >> experience is with XForms.  It is not, 
> however, a good example of  >> proper XForms authoring (as 
> noted in the Disclaimer toward the top of  >> the form 
> source).  Due to a variety of limitations that currently  >> 
> exists in our XForms implementation, we could not achieve the 
>  >> table-type of layout that we desired in any other way.  
> When our next  >> preview release comes out and we can 
> achieve the desired layout in the  >> 'proper' way, we'll 
> update these samples and include new samples.
>  >
>  >
>  > Thanks for the explanation.
>  >
>  >> As far as bugs, there is nothing that says that a label 
> MUST be  >> contained in a form control, though that is often 
> the case and is  >> pretty much what it was designed for.  So 
> the fact that a label will  >> render outside of a form 
> control is not a bug.
>  >
>  >
>  > The spec says (8.3.3):
>  >
>  > "This required element labels the containing form control 
> with a  > descriptive label."
>  >
>  > That is also how the xforms:label element is used in the 
> XForms spec  > examples. See section 2.1 for example:
>  >
>  > "Form controls always have labels directly associated with 
> them as child  > elements-this is a key feature designed to 
> enhance accessibility."
>  >
>  > See also section 8.1, "8.1 The XForms Form Controls 
> Module". The label  > element is part of the minimal content 
> model for most of the elements  > there. Section 9.1, "9.1 
> The XForms Group Module", shows that you can  > have one 
> optinal label within xforms:group elements.
>  >
>  > Based on this, the xforms:label element:
>  >
>  > 1. Has a containing form control
>  > 2. Is required exactly once within most form controls  > 
> 3. Is sometimes optional (but with one occurrence at most), 
> for example
>  >    within xforms:group
>  >
>  > So I stand by my initial claim that this is a bug, and 
> that you cannot  > use xforms:label the way the Tax form 
> example does. I would definitely  > appreciate a convincing 
> argument (i.e. reference to the spec and/or  > errata) saying 
> otherwise.
>  >
>  > -Erik
> 
> Hi Erik,
> 
> I agree with 2 and 3.  1 should be 'may have a containing 
> form control'.
>    In none of the quotes you provided (nor anywhere in the 
> spec) is label restricted to only being a child of certain 
> form controls. The fact that formsPlayer, X-Smiles, and 
> Novell's XForms processors all render labels outside of 
> controls without error leads me to believe that we are 
> behaving correctly.  We are compatible with other 
> implementations who have a similar interpretation of the 
> spec.  If the WG wanted labels only contained in form 
> controls, then they could have enforced this in the XForms 
> schema or turned the label into an attribute on a form 
> control, but they didn't.  Because it isn't restricted by the 
> spec, then we should allow the form author maximum 
> flexibility while maintaining compatibility with other 
> implementations.  We can't always predict how a form author 
> may chose to use a control to meet their needs.
> 
> More on this topic is addressed by this thread in the W3C's 
> mailing list
> archive: 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2005Mar/0066.html
> 
> Thanks for your comments,
> --Aaron
> 
> 
Received on Thursday, 16 June 2005 06:47:23 GMT

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