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RE: [XForms] Re: Will Internet Explorer support XForms

From: Sikora, Gary <gjsikora@progeny.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 13:01:55 -0400
Message-ID: <390F231507E5CC4996ACACE92CEC9CCA18E950@es3.progeny.net>
To: "Dharmesh Mistry" <dharmesh@edgeipk.com>, "Bob Foster" <bob@objfac.com>, <francisco.monteiro01@ntlworld.com>, <XForms@yahoogroups.com>, <www-forms@w3.org>
www.formfaces.com <http://www.formfaces.com/>  offers a pre-processor
and is listed on the W3C site.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dharmesh Mistry [mailto:dharmesh@edgeipk.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:07 AM
To: Bob Foster; francisco.monteiro01@ntlworld.com;
XForms@yahoogroups.com; www-forms@w3.org
Subject: Re: [XForms] Re: Will Internet Explorer support XForms
IE Support for XForms.
Please can someone confirm whether Xforms MUST have a plug-in or browser
support. As I understand Xforms solutions can be deployed in two ways:
1) Browser based rendering (i.e. browser or plug-in interpretes XForms
and renders screen at the client)
2) Server based pre-processor, in which case an Xform implementation is
translated to HTML/Javascript at the server so the browser see's a forms
solutions without needing a plug-in or specific browser implementation.
Xforms plug-ins are listed on the W3C site but not pre-processors such
as what IBM provide.
kind regards................Dharmesh
---- Original Message ----- 
	From: Bob Foster <mailto:bob@objfac.com>  
	To: francisco.monteiro01@ntlworld.com ; XForms@yahoogroups.com ;
	Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 7:12 PM
	Subject: Re: [XForms] Re: Will Internet Explorer support XForms
	> we use 'reflection' on the schema and build 80% of the UI
	> it could be 100% but laws of ergonomics and 'real estate' will
	> make this achievable.
	80% seems quite good. Are you able to share the techniques used
to achieve this? I am sure we would all benefit from this experience.
	Bob Foster
		----- Original Message ----- 
		From: Francisco Monteiro
		To: XForms@yahoogroups.com ; www-forms@w3.org 
		Cc: Mark.Birbeck@x-port.net 
		Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 2:50 AM
		Subject: RE: [XForms] Re: Will Internet Explorer support
		Hello Andrew
		You mention this InfoPath (which does more than XForms
per se does)
		I do not believe the above.
		My company evaluated InfoPath and XForms (FormsPlayer)
with a view of providing the Inland Revenue Self Assessment tax return.
		XForms won hands down. We have a very good demo showing
XForms in it gory.
		Everybody knows providing any forms which deals with tax
issues is complicated, granted that InfoPath has a good IDE but in our
situation we use 'reflection' on the schema and build 80% of the UI
dynamic, it could be 100% but laws of ergonomics and 'real estate' will
never make this achievable.
		The beauty about XForms is the simplicity of its model
bindings, a quite readable specification and FormsPlayer.
		Kind Regards
		Francisco Monteiro
		Facile Technology Ltd.

		From: AndrewWatt2001@aol.com
		Sent: 09 October 2003 17:48
		To: www-forms@w3.org
		Cc: XForms@yahoogroups.com
		In a message dated 09/10/2003 16:20:48 GMT Daylight
Time, MShupe@AnyDocSoftware.com writes:
		I am curious.
		It seems to me that the value of XForms depends heavily
on its being supported by the browsers. However, I have not heard any
indication that Microsoft intends to support XForms in IE. They don't
mention it anywhere on their site. Furthermore, they are not complying
with it in their InfoPath product which suggests to me that XForms and
InfoPath are competing.  That is, Microsoft will probably have a vested
interest in NOT supporting XForms. This concern was further confirmed
after reading about Microsoft's lack of interest in fixing CSS bugs in
		At the same time, I don't find anybody expressing
concern about this in any of the XForms sites or forums.
		Am I missing something?
		My interpretation of Microsoft's strategy is that they
are, by various means, tilting clients back from Web browsers towards
paid-for clients. Office System 2003 programs can be used as front-ends
to a range of server-based applications.
		Similarly InfoPath (which does more than XForms per se
does) is a paid-for client, even when used simply to fill in InfoPath
forms. This raises a range of deployment issues for the casual XML-based
form. My interpretation is that Microsoft wishes to position InfoPath as
an enterprise forms tool - for example to replace custom applications -
not as a general-purpose ubiquitous Web forms tool. In other words
InfoPath forms are targetted at use in settings where one user regularly
fills in one or more InfoPath forms. The inclusion of InfoPath only in
Enterprise editions of Office System 2003 fits with that suggestion.
		Bear in mind, also, that InfoPath 2003 is already here
as an RTM product (at least for MSDN subscribers and some corporate
customers, public release is 21st October). The InfoPath (previously
XDocs) project has, I understand, a long history and design decisions
were made long before XForms had reached anything resembling a fully
stable specification. So there was, "back then", no XForms worthy of the
name on which to build the InfoPath product.
		Another factor, in my mind anyway, is a lurking, nagging
doubt about how secure XForms forms are. I asked that question on these
lists many months ago and didn't receive a wholly satisfactory answer.
XForms *may well* be secure. It's just that I would like to see a more
compelling laying out of the evidence in support of that conclusion.
		What will InfoPath 2005(?) be like? Will there be a free
fill-form-only InfoPath 2005 client? If there is, then maybe Microsoft
will adopt XForms but the underlying architecture of InfoPath is *very*
different from XForms. An XForms-compliant Microsoft client would be a
very different animal under the hood from InfoPath 2003. Alternatively
Microsoft may leave InfoPath as an enterprise tool and produce a
more-limited functionality tool for XForms. Or may leave the low-value
space to others. There are many options.
		As far as browser support of XForms is concerned then
there are "plug ins" which others have mentioned in their replies.
		Andrew Watt 
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Received on Monday, 13 October 2003 13:02:16 UTC

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