W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-forms@w3.org > October 2003

Re: [XForms] Re: Will Internet Explorer support XForms

From: joern turner <joern.turner@web.de>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 14:30:27 +0200
Message-ID: <3F86A663.2040900@web.de>
To: "Karandikar, Shailesh" <Shailesh.Karandikar@dendrite.com>
Cc: AndrewWatt2001@aol.com, www-forms@w3.org

Karandikar,

Karandikar, Shailesh wrote:

> Andrew,
>  
> I have to agree with you that model used by Infopath is quite useful.
>  
> Besides legal/security issues, I would classify 'forms' market into
> enterprise and internet. Standards compliance is necessary for internet
> class of applications. For enterprise apps, the focus is more on business
> logic, workflows, end-user conveniences, efficient manipulation of remote
> and local data, multiple views of the same data, compatibility with other
> applications such emails, word processing, etc. In other words, rich client
> functionality is desirable. 
>  
> There is an overlap between the two, but, as it stands now, I don't believe
> XForms completely qualify being a rich client (although its a smart
> client!). Comparing the two, Infopath styled applications may be more
> suitable for enterprises. However, the principles embodied in XForms could
> be (and might have been used in Infopath) used in wider context and not only
> limited to browsers.
very good point. the discussion often cycles too much around the 
question of IE or not and browsers in general and disregards the 
device-independence of XForms. -

i don't see any reason why an XForms Model shouldn't/couldn't be 
connected to rich client compoments and e.g. drive a Swing GUI.

Joern Turner

>  
> 
> Regards, 
> Shailesh Karandikar 
> Dendrite Intl.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AndrewWatt2001@aol.com [mailto:AndrewWatt2001@aol.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 7:31 AM
> To: MSeaborne@origoservices.com
> Cc: www-forms@w3.org; XForms@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [XForms] Re: Will Internet Explorer support XForms
> 
> 
> Mark,
> 
> I notice that you didn't respond to my point:
> 
> 
>>How does the UK insurance industry propose to handle the types of legal
> 
> issue which >John Messing mentioned in the "How secure is XForms?" thread?
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that your old system didn't cover that nor does the
> new? Do legal requirements in the UK and USA differ?
> 
> In a message dated 10/10/2003 11:58:48 GMT Daylight Time,
> MSeaborne@origoservices.com writes:
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew,
> 
> 
>>>I think whatever the differences in functionality are between 
>>>InfoPath and XForms, for many organisations it all boils 
>>>down to who owns the underlying technology. The industry I work for
>>>(UK Life Insurance) already has its own forms markup language widely
>>>deployed, using both client rendering software specific to the 
>>>language, and server-side transforms to HTML. This is working today, >>and
> 
> has been for several years. We operate in a world where a form
> 
>>>may be deployed in many different ways, and by organisations other >>than
> 
> the form originator.
> 
> 
>>>Such an inter-organisational infrastructure is only viable if every
>>>one adopts the same underlying forms technology. 
> 
> 
>>Why?
> 
> 
> E.g. A form will be authored by company X, and perhaps deployed by them on
> one or two of their own channels. The form will also be deployed by three
> third parties for use by potentially thousands of end users, some of whom
> work in organisation with a sophisticated IT infrastructure, while others
> have a telephone and fax machine. The form cannot be reauthored in any way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um .... not being facetious ... but how do you get the XML instance data
> down the phone line or in the fax? It seems to me that some form (forgive
> the pun) of refactoring is going on anyway. So, in principle, why not
> InfoPath too?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Key points are:
> 
> 1) The form author does not know how the form is to be deployed at authoring
> time
> 2) Many organisations will host the same form, providing access to end users
> with many different delivery requirments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah ... but what is a "form"? It's a serious question. One the XForms WG
> ducked ... shame on them! :) ... and leaves terminology in a flakey state.
> 
> If you have a set of form controls on an electronic XForms form and have a
> set of similar looking (but non-functioning) widgets on a paper form is that
> the "same form"? Or not? It isn't obvious to me. Is the paper form an XForms
> form?
> 
> I must make a point of seeing how T V Raman handles the issue of "what is a
> form?" in his book as I continue reading it. I guess the overview format
> allows avoidance of practical little issues like that. "Form" doesn't make
> it in the index.
> 
> 
> 
> It turned out to be cheaper and more practical to produce our own forms
> markup language than to leave all form generators and users to do their own
> thing.
>   
> 
>>>XForms is only an option because it is an open standard, InfoPath, 
>>>and other competing forms technologies, are not because they are
>>>proprietary. It really is that simple. 
> 
> 
>>Are you sure?
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not convinced yet. :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>Just curious, but how is a server to tell the difference between an 
>>XML instance document submitted by InfoPath and one submitted from an
>>XForms client?
> 
> 
> For us XForms addresses forms/business rules deployment across organisations
> that have contractually regulated relationships. 
> 
> 
> 
> OK. But that doesn't answer my question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>I haven't seen the Adobe XML/PDF technology yet but if it submits an
>>identical XML instance document why should that automatically fail to >meet
> 
> your needs?
> 
> Hopefully that should be clear from comments above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. It isn't clear to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>Does your industry's application require that the visible "form" of 
>>the form is common? Or that the XML data submitted is?
> 
> 
> Both or either depending on circumstances. 
> 
> 
> 
> So if InfoPath could submit identical to XForms that would be ok in some
> circumstances?
> 
> Then there is the matter of the business rules underlying a form.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by business rules in this context?
> 
> I am challenging your proposition of this type of decision being simple and
> the assertion that "standards" are "all there is to it". I simply am not
> convinced that it is "that simple".
> 
> The assessment of your needs is yours and the decision on a chosen solution
> likewise. I do find it difficult to see how this is as simple as you
> indicate.
> 
> Andrew Watt 
> 
> 
> 
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
> 
> **********************************************************************
> 
> 
Received on Friday, 10 October 2003 08:29:43 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Saturday, 10 March 2012 06:21:56 GMT