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RE: Review of XForms working draft

From: T. V. Raman <tvraman@almaden.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:01:52 -0800
Message-ID: <14930.27632.7585.805572@raman.almaden.ibm.com>
To: Barbara Samson <bsamson@cisco.com>
Cc: "'www-forms@w3.org'" <www-forms@w3.org>
This is correct.
Inconsistency is a lot harder to comprehend than one
person's perceived notion o fwhat is simpler or harder.

SGML learnt these lessons the hard way by introducing things
like tag minimization in the interest of keyboarding
simplicity --that eventually came back to bite.
It's quite amusing to see XML-based technologies go through
the same agonizing throes 20 years later --
>>>>> "Barbara" == Barbara Samson <bsamson@cisco.com> writes:

    Barbara> I would like to see XForms stick to Schema
    Barbara> names for consistency. If abbreviations are
    Barbara> beneficial, then Schema should be using
    Barbara> them. Until then, let's all use the same names.

    Barbara> Barbara Samson Cisco Systems

    Barbara> At 02:57 PM 1/2/2001 -0800, Welsh, Linda B
    Barbara> wrote:
    >> I think Raman's point is that if we stuck w/ the
    >> schema names, people would know EXACTLY what they
    >> mean, and not prejudge, one way or another.
    >> 
    >> And his other point, are we really making it
    >> "simpler" for simple syntax hand coders (and losing a
    >> feature in the bargain)? We're talking about not
    >> having to type a few more characters. The schema
    >> names avoid any ambiguity.
    >> 
    >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    >> Linda Bucsay Welsh <mailto:linda@intel.com> Web
    >> Standards & Architecture Team (WSAT) Intel
    >> Architecture Labs 503.264.4987 - Desk 503.799.7091 -
    >> Cell 503.264.3375 - Fax
    >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    >> 
    >> 
    >> 
    >> >-----Original Message----- >From: Rob McDougall
    >> [mailto:RMcDouga@JetForm.com] >Sent: Tuesday, January
    >> 02, 2001 12:10 PM >To: 'tvraman@almaden.ibm.com';
    >> Micah Dubinko >Cc: 'gilescope@yahoo.co.uk';
    >> 'www-forms@w3.org' >Subject: RE: Review of XForms
    >> working draft
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >Hmm, the fact that this editorial mistake was
    >> self-evident to someone >outside the working group
    >> indicates to me that the max >attribute itself is >in
    >> fact simple and self-evident.
    >> >
    >> >It's interesting how one's predispositions can
    >> influence one's >conclusions, >isn't it?
    >> >
    >> >Rob
    >> >
    >> >-----Original Message----- >From: T. V. Raman
    >> [mailto:tvraman@almaden.ibm.com] >Sent: January 2,
    >> 2001 1:37 PM >To: Micah Dubinko >Cc:
    >> 'gilescope@yahoo.co.uk'; 'www-forms@w3.org' >Subject:
    >> RE: Review of XForms working draft
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >On 1: I would strongly advocate against our
    >> continuing to >cook up our abbreviated versions of
    >> max-inclusive and >friends.  >I believed this at the
    >> FTF --the review comments only >strengthen this
    >> belief.
    >> >
    >> >We might well feel that max-inclusive etc are "too
    >> cmplex" >according to some as yet undefined
    >> complexity measure; >however we are not making things
    >> simpler by adding quirks of >our own that appear
    >> "simpler" to us --the rest of the world > will just
    >> remain confused.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >>>>>> "Micah" == Micah Dubinko
    >> <MDubinko@cardiff.com> writes:
    >> >
    >> > Micah> Giles, Thanks for your time and feedback.
    >> >
    >> > Micah> on 1) - I believe you are correct. Is this >
    >> Micah> confusing enough that we should consider just
    >> > Micah> leaving the inclusive/exclusive versions and
    >> skip > Micah> the abbreviated one alltogether?
    >> >
    >> > Micah> on 2) - I like this idea. We will consider >
    >> Micah> something along these lines for our ongoing >
    >> Micah> research with the XForms Processing Model.
    >> >
    >> > Micah> Thanks!
    >> >
    >> > Micah> Micah Dubinko Co-editor, W3C XForms Working
    >> Group
    >> >
    >> > Micah> -----Original Message----- From: Giles Cope
    >> > Micah> [mailto:gec@hyperoffice.com] Sent: Tuesday,
    >> > Micah> January 02, 2001 4:37 AM To:
    >> www-forms@w3.org > Micah> Subject: Review of XForms
    >> working draft
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > Micah> 1. 'max' for Number should be short for >
    >> Micah> maxInclusive not maxExclusive (and 'min' >
    >> Micah> respectivly).
    >> >
    >> > Micah> 2. In 9.4: We do need a syntax to work on >
    >> Micah> multiple models but,
    >> >
    >> > Micah> <xfm:textbox > Micah>
    >> ref="instance::b/orderForm/shipTo/firstName">
    >> >
    >> > Micah> but we loose the idea of the current context
    >> > Micah> using this syntax, and have to specify
    >> everything > Micah> from the root.
    >> >
    >> > Micah> We need something like:
    >> >
    >> > Micah> <xfm:textbox > Micah>
    >> ref="instance::b./shipTo/firstName">
    >> >
    >> > Micah> but obviously with better syntax. Maybe we >
    >> Micah> could select the current context in the
    >> binding > Micah> element:
    >> >
    >> > Micah> <xfm:bind> <xfm:select="orderForm/shipTo/">
    >> > Micah> <xfm:bind id="myfirstname"
    >> ref="firstName""/> > Micah> <xfm:bind
    >> id="myaddresszip" ref="address/zip"/> > Micah>
    >> </xfm:select> </xfm:bind>
    >> >
    >> > Micah> my two cents, gilescope@yahoo.co.uk > Micah>
    >> ----------------------------------------------------------
    >> > Micah> "My sole reply," said he, "to that demand Is
    >> > Micah> action; when a fit request is made Silence
    >> and > Micah> deeds should follow out of hand."  --
    >> Virgil > Micah> [Canto XXIV, 76]
    >> >
    >> >--
    >> >Best Regards, >--raman
    >> >------------------------------------------------------------
    >> >
    >> >IBM Research: Human Language Technologies >Phone: 1
    >> (408) 927 2608 >Fax: 1 (408) 927 3012 >Email:
    >> tvraman@us.ibm.com >WWW:
    >> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/raman >PGP:
    >> http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.asc >Snail:
    >> IBM Almaden Research Center, > 650 Harry Road > San
    >> Jose 95120
    >> >
    >> >

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman
------------------------------------------------------------

IBM Research: Human Language Technologies
Phone:        1 (408) 927 2608
Fax:        1 (408) 927 3012
Email:        tvraman@us.ibm.com
WWW:      http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/raman
PGP:          http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.asc 
Snail:        IBM Almaden Research Center,
              650 Harry Road
              San Jose 95120
Received on Tuesday, 2 January 2001 19:02:25 GMT

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