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RE: [48 hour response please] Re: User understanding of what will be submitted by SUBMIT

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:52:46 -0400 (EDT)
To: Micah Dubinko <MDubinko@cardiff.com>
cc: "'Al Gilman'" <asgilman@iamdigex.net>, <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>, Steven Pemberton <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl>, "'www-forms-editor@w3.org'" <www-forms-editor@w3.org>, <wai-liaison@w3.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0206272152180.31195-100000@tux.w3.org>

This makes good sense. Unfortunately I am not going to be able to contribute
much more to this debate in the next few days.

Chaals

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Micah Dubinko wrote:


  Hi Al,

  I'm an editor for XForms 1.0, but I'm writing here for myself only.

  >[And it is not immediately obvious with this data model strength that this
  document needs to say more.

  I agree with this point. As long as you are satisfied that we meet your
  functional requirements, no additional text should be necessary.

  If you do wish to provide a short NOTE:, I would suggest placing it in the
  section describing the "submit" form control. This section (8.8 in the Last
  Call document [1]) has not significantly changed, so the Last Call text
  provides good context information.

  Thanks!

  .micah

  [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/slice8.html#ui-submit

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Al Gilman [mailto:asgilman@iamdigex.net]
  Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 6:52 AM
  To: w3c-wai-pf@w3.org; Steven Pemberton; www-forms-editor@w3.org
  Cc: wai-liaison@w3.org
  Subject: [48 hour response please] Re: User understanding of what will
  be submitted by SUBMIT

  Steven,

  [preliminary] This indeed looks on instant review as though it does meet the
  functional
  requirement we posed.

  PF:  Anyone see a flaw in this reasoning?  Please respond by this time
  Friday if you
  see anything.

  Steven,

  What is the baseline (draft) against which we should pose language-to-insert
  as edits?
  It would appear that there have been enough changes so that we wouldn't know
  how to
  say what needs to be said without being aware of the context in the section
  where it goes.

  [It may go in the section on host languages which we understand to be rather
  new.]

  [And it is not immediately obvious with this data model strength that this
  document
  needs to say more.  The next stop may be the DOM.]

  Al

  At 09:10 AM 2002-06-26, Steven Pemberton wrote:
  >Thanks for the message. We were actually expecting text to include in our
  >forthcoming CR spec, as agreed on March 1st at the Cannes FtF.
  >http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/Group/2002/f2f-Cannes/minutes.html#topic134
  >
  >However, let me address your comments here:
  >
  >> Users need to know, when they are submitting a form, what information
  they
  >> are submitting.
  >...
  >> The PF group has discussed several possible approaches:
  >>
  >> 1. Requiring an explicit reference from each form control to the model
  >that
  >> it is associated with. The principle is that this provides unambiguous
  >> information in the DOM that assistive technologies (and simple adaptation
  >> techniques) can access. See for example
  >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms-editor/2002Feb/0110
  >
  >This requirement is already the case. If there is only one form, then the
  >controls default to the only model. If there is more than one form, then
  the
  >controls must explicitely reference the model.
  >
  >> 2. Requiring an explicit container for a form, as in HTML, that does not
  >> allow other forms to be contained. The principle is that this makes it
  >very
  >> easy to identify the things that are being submitted - not requiring real
  >DOM
  >> processing. The original proposal was made (Member only - need permission
  >to
  >> make it public) in the PF meeting of 19 June 2002 - see logs at
  >> http://www.w3.org/2002/06/19-pf-irc#T17-03-27
  >
  >This is also already the case, only maybe it wasn't clear. The form is
  >actually the model. It identifies explicitely what is to be submitted on
  the
  ><submission> element (was previously called <submitInfo>). If there are
  >several forms, there are several models. If there are several different
  ways
  >of submitting a form there are several <submission> elements. The <submit>
  >form-control binds directly to a <submission> element in the model, so it
  is
  >trivial to find out from there what is being submitted. What is not trivial
  >is to identify what is 'hidden' in old-HTML Forms parlance (i.e. what
  hasn't
  >been displayed to the user up to that point), and how to present it all to
  >the user in an easy-to-understand way (since it is just XML data).
  >
  >> 3. Placing a conformance requirement on User Agents that they offer the
  >> possibility of reviewing what information is being provided in a given
  >form,
  >> and to "confirm or cancel" the submission. See "doing more" point 3 at
  >>
  >> http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10-TECHS/guidelines.html#tech-info-form-submit
  >>
  >> See also (Member Only)
  >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2002JanMar/0254
  >
  >As I said, this is easy to do, though hard to format in a friendly way. So
  I
  >think we fulfil all your requirements, and we only need text from you that
  >satisfies what you think needs to be said.
  >
  >Best wishes,
  >
  >Steven


-- 
Charles McCathieNevile    http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  phone: +61 409 134 136
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Received on Thursday, 27 June 2002 21:52:54 GMT

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