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Re: Deprecating DOMFocusIn/DOMFocusOut (was: DOMActivate vs. Click)

From: Jon Gunderson <jongund@illinois.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:30:07 -0500 (CDT)
To: "Maciej Stachowiak" <mjs@apple.com>
Cc: "Charles McCathieNevile" <chaals@opera.com>, "Doug Schepers" <schepers@w3.org>, "Anne van Kesteren" <annevk@opera.com>, wai-xtech@w3.org, "Jacob Rossi" <t-jacobr@microsoft.com>, "Travis Leithead" <travil@microsoft.com>, www-dom@w3.org, public-forms@w3.org
Message-Id: <20090724133007.BUX39479@expms1.cites.uiuc.edu>
Maciej,

Thank you for the clarification, I then have no objection.

If there are changes being made to the DOM spec, I hope the working group will consider a means to enumerate what event handlers are associated with a DOM node.

This is a feature that is critical for evaluation tools looking at accessibility to check whether a HTML element may be interactive with users and needs to be described using ARIA markup.

Jon




---- Original message ----
>Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 18:26:41 -0700
>From: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>  
>Subject: Re: Deprecating DOMFocusIn/DOMFocusOut  (was:  DOMActivate vs. Click)  
>To: Jon Gunderson <jongund@illinois.edu>
>Cc: Charles McCathieNevile <chaals@opera.com>, Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org>, Anne van Kesteren <annevk@opera.com>, wai-xtech@w3.org, Jacob Rossi <t-jacobr@microsoft.com>, Travis Leithead <travil@microsoft.com>, www-dom@w3.org, public-forms@w3.org
>
>
>On Jul 22, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Jon Gunderson wrote:
>
>> These event handlers are commonly used to create styling effects for  
>> node or more importantly related nodes that cannot be styled using  
>> CSS selectors.
>>
>> If an element receives keyboard focus what event can be used to  
>> update visual styling?
>
>The "focus" and "blur" events can be used for this. "DOMFocusIn" and  
>"DOMFocusOut" largely duplicate their functionality. Although for  
>purely visual styling, I would recommend CSS :hover effects over script.
>
>> If we don't need focusin and focusout, then I assume mouseover and  
>> mouseout will also be deprecated.
>>
>> Focus styling is not very well implemented in browsers or by web  
>> developers.
>
>No one is proposing taking away focus events. The question is just  
>whether we need to have two separate sets of them.
>
>  - Maciej
>
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> ---- Original message ----
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 00:18:55 +0200
>>> From: "Charles McCathieNevile" <chaals@opera.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Deprecating DOMFocusIn/DOMFocusOut  (was: DOMActivate  
>>> vs. Click)
>>> To: "Doug Schepers" <schepers@w3.org>, "Anne van Kesteren" <annevk@opera.com 
>>> >, "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
>>> Cc: "Jacob Rossi" <t-jacobr@microsoft.com>, "Maciej Stachowiak" <mjs@apple.com 
>>> >, "Travis Leithead" <travil@microsoft.com>, "www-dom@w3.org" <www-dom@w3.org 
>>> >, public-forms@w3.org
>>>
>>> IMHO, and cc'ing the WAI-xtech list to see if PF really agrees with  
>>> me.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:05:25 +0200, Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org>  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, Anne-
>>>>
>>>> +public-forms@w3.org
>>>>
>>>> Anne van Kesteren wrote (on 7/22/09 9:35 AM):
>>>>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:16:14 +0200, Jacob Rossi<t-jacobr@microsoft.com 
>>>>> >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok. That makes sense. Given that, is DOMActivate simply left in  
>>>>>> DOM
>>>>>> L3 Events to support backwards compatibility with DOM L2 events?  
>>>>>> Or
>>>>>> are there still use cases which it solves that other events do
>>>>>> not?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the sole reason we have DOMFocusIn, DOMFocusOut, and
>>>>> DOMActivate is political. I'm not sure if that changed to backwards
>>>>> compatibility at this point, but I doubt it.
>>>
>>> They were created at a time when there were serious accessibility  
>>> problems
>>> activating the relevant events through keyboard use, and it was a
>>> compromise between fixing the more common events and doing nothing  
>>> - in
>>> that sense it was indeed political.
>>>
>>> Since then, the original events have in fact been improved in  
>>> browsers,
>>> and the reason for retaining these is back-compat (this was an early
>>> decision of the old WebAPI WG) at the request of other groups.
>>>
>>>>> DOMFocusIn and DOMFocusOut have been retained on request of the  
>>>>> Forms
>>>>> WG and for DOMActivate I do not really remember. Fact of the matter
>>>>> is that focus/blur/click work fine and already are platform
>>>>> independent and much better understood by authors of Web
>>>>> applications.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be very happy if could consider yet again dropping
>>>>> DOMFocusIn/DOMFocusOut/DOMActivate.
>>>
>>> I think it makes good sense to deprecate them, pointing out that  
>>> people
>>> shouldn't keep using them but should use the improved originals.  
>>> (And it
>>> only took ten years to get to this :) ).
>>>
>>> Likewise, the click event is now cross-platform and device- 
>>> independent, so
>>> the reason for a seperate DOMActivate is gone, and that should also  
>>> be
>>> deprecated.
>>>
>>> I haven't looked carefully at the impact on WCAG 2 yet, but the  
>>> impact on
>>> WCAG 1.0 is that the relevant checkpoints 6.4 [1] and 9.3  
>>> especially, but
>>> also some others need not be updated. However the techniques  
>>> documents
>>> should note that it is possible to use the focusin/out and click  
>>> events
>>> because they are generally device-independent in this way (mouseover,
>>> mousein/out by contrast are still problematic). If someone could  
>>> check
>>> this for WCAG2 it would be helpful.
>>>
>>>> Taking a look at the current state of implementation [1], and  
>>>> seeing the
>>>> similarity of function between IE's focusin/focusout and
>>>> DOMFocusIn/DOMFocusOut, I have now included focusin/focusout, and
>>>> deprecated DOMFocusIn/DOMFocusOut in favor of those event types.   
>>>> This
>>>> is a tentative decision, but it seems logical to me; any comments  
>>>> are
>>>> welcome.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#tech-keyboard-operable-scripts
>>> [2]
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#tech-device-independent-events
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> Chaals
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Charles McCathieNevile  Opera Software, Standards Group
>>>      je parle franšais -- hablo espa˝ol -- jeg lŠrer norsk
>>> http://my.opera.com/chaals       Try Opera: http://www.opera.com
>>>
>> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>>
>> Rehabilitation Education Center
>> Room 86
>> 1207 S. Oak Street
>> Champaign, Illinois 61820
>>
>> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>>
>> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>>
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>
Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
Disability Resources and Educational Services

Rehabilitation Education Center
Room 86
1207 S. Oak Street
Champaign, Illinois 61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870

WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/

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Received on Friday, 24 July 2009 18:30:58 GMT

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