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RE: [D3E] Draft minutes from 11 March 2009 telcon

From: Travis Leithead <Travis.Leithead@microsoft.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 22:08:39 -0700
To: "www-dom@w3.org" <www-dom@w3.org>
CC: public-webapps <public-webapps@w3.org>
Message-ID: <0003CB8B8FE2154EB50431DB2B8F69C01E37B080D6@NA-EXMSG-W601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>
My regrets for missing this. Thanks for sending out the notes.

I will be unable to make the next meeting on the 18th as well--if any of you will be attending MIX'09, perhaps I'll see you there.

-----Original Message-----
From: public-webapps-request@w3.org [mailto:public-webapps-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Arthur Barstow
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:43 PM
To: www-dom@w3.org
Cc: public-webapps
Subject: [D3E] Draft minutes from 11 March 2009 telcon

The Draft minutes from the DOM 3 Events Voice Conference are
available at the following and copied below:

  <http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html>

The next D3E voice conference is 18 March.

-Regards, Art Barstow

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

              Web Applications Working Group Teleconference

11 Mar 2009

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
0004.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Art, Doug, Olli

    Regrets
           Charles

    Chair
           Art

    Scribe
           Art

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Agenda Review
          2. [6]confirm last week's minutes
          3. [7]Action item review - Due this week
          4. [8]ACTION-1 - Find All Open Issues For DOM3 Events and
             Update the Specification - schepers
          5. [9]ACTION 312 - Propose langauge to resolve ISSUE-44 -
             schepers
          6. [10]ACTION 318 - Research what SVG does for load - schepers
          7. [11]ACTION 319 - Publish your findings about mutation event
             implementation - Olli
          8. [12]ACTION 320 - Talk to people at Opera about mutation
             events - chaals
          9. [13]ISSUE-44 (related to actions 312 and 318 above)
         10. [14]ISSUE-39 (related to action 320 above)
         11. [15]Publication schedule
         12. [16]Other overdue action items?
         13. [17]AOB
      * [18]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <trackbot> Date: 11 March 2009

    <shepazu> sigh

    <shepazu> ISSUE-44?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-44 -- Should DOM3 Events cover the interaction of
    events and the Window object? -- RAISED

    <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/44

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/44

    <smaug> hmm, "passcode not valid"

    yeah, me too

    agenda says "3661#"

    <smaug> haa

    <scribe> Scribe: Art

    <scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB

Agenda Review

    AB: agenda is
    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0004.html
    ... do other people typically join this call?

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
0004.html

    DS: Travis from Microsoft used to join
    ... but we don't have to wait for him to start the meeting

    AB: Charles created this agenda; mostly Actions, Issues and Pub
    plans
    ... any change requests?

    [ None ]

confirm last week's minutes

    AB: any objections to confirming last week's minutes?
    ...
    <[21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/att-0003
    /D3E-webapps-090303.html>

      [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
att-0003/D3E-webapps-090303.html%3E

    [ No Objections ]

Action item review - Due this week

    AB: All of the D3E Issues and Actions are available at:
    ... [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
    ... I noticed 5-6 of the issues are in the RAISED state
    ... Briefly, what process is used to move an Issue from Raised to
    Open?
    ... Just curious (we don't use RAISED state in Widgets)

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2

    DS: raised means the issue is recorded
    ... it is changed to Open when the group agrees to take it on
    ... then we issue Actions against the Open Issue

    <scribe> ... Pending Review means the issue is still open and
    pending the actions related to it are closed

ACTION-1 - Find All Open Issues For DOM3 Events and Update the
Specification - schepers

    AB: [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/1

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/1

    DS: that was recorded a long time ago to test Tracker
    ... I should close just close it
    ... I will change the Due Date to the 18th
    ... I haven't uploaded my changes yet

    AB: I noticed the latest ED was quite old

    DS: yes; I'm still getting back to it
    ... I will check in a new version before the next call (Mar 18)

ACTION 312 - Propose langauge to resolve ISSUE-44 - schepers

    AB: [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/312

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/312

    DS: I have some wording in my draft
    ... I'll complete this action when I make my upload next week
    ... I will define a default action for the load event

    OP: default action?

    DS: no, sorry, I meant default behavior
    ... and let the individual specs override how the load event works
    ... i.e. how it is dispatched
    ... and what its target is

    OP: yes, I think you are correct about the target

    DS: we may have to talk more about the Window
    ... I'll have to redo the chart to include Window

    OP: Window is the parent node above the document

    DS: so bubble goes up to window?

    OP: yes
    ... check the mail around ISSUE #44
    ... it is dispatched to Window but its target is Document

    DS: need to be careful about HTML specific behavior
    ... don't want SVG and HTML doing diff things

    <smaug> all the other events except load propagates from document to
    window

    <shepazu> ACTION: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window',
    to add behavior like HTML's [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-323 - Coordinate with SVG WG about
    'window', to add behavior like HTML's [on Doug Schepers - due
    2009-03-18].

    DS: if we put this in D3E it would get folded into SVG

    OP: we can talk about default view and not Window

    <shepazu> where window == defaultView

ACTION 318 - Research what SVG does for load - schepers

    AB: [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/318

      [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/318

    DS: this is related to our previous discussion

    AB: so what do we do with this then?

    DS: leave it open

ACTION 319 - Publish your findings about mutation event implementation
- Olli

    <smaug>
    [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html

      [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
0007.html

    AB: [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/319

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/319

    OP: I sent some emails to the list today

    <shepazu>
    [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html

      [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
0007.html

    OP: no one supports everything
    ... Whenever mutation listeners are used, the relevant DOM
    operations slowdown a lot in all browser engines
    ... I've been talking to the ARIA people

    <smaug> "chaals> roughly, we don't see that changing them is a great
    idea. We implemented them ages ago, and while they imply a
    performance hit, they do something that seems useful"

    AB: how do we reflect Chaals' comments?

    DS: one way is mutation events as defined in DOM2
    ... i.e. keep them as they exist
    ... could find intersection of the browser and throw away others
    ... could define new model
    ... would like to have a more performant model
    ... and define a mapping from the new model to the existing
    definition
    ... and deprecate those that aren't implemented by all of the
    browsers

    OP: Jonas made a proposal last summer

    AB: do you have a pointer to that proposal?

    <smaug>
    [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/01
    46.html

      [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/
2008JulSep/0146.html

    <shepazu>
    [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/01
    74.html

      [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/
2008JulSep/0174.html

    AB: so only 3 of the 7 mutation events are implemented by these
    three browsers?

    OP: yes, that's the case
    ... the slow down is amazing; used a deep tree

    DS: the slowdown is actually a big usability issue particularly in
    accessibility use cases
    ... because there may not be an indication it is occuring
    ... may need a dedicated ARIA event

    OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events if for
    example it was doing some location stuff

    <smaug>
    [32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0010.html

      [32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/
0010.html

    <smaug> OP: yes; and some web apps may decide not use these events
    because it would slow down performance also for people who don't use
    a11y stuff

    OP: the email from Boris indicates the .style change also cause
    slowdowns

    AB: I think Olli completed this action right?

    OP: yes I've already closed

ACTION 320 - Talk to people at Opera about mutation events - chaals

    AB: [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/320
    ... should we skip this today?

      [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/320

ISSUE-44 (related to actions 312 and 318 above)

    AB: Issue is: What should D3E say about the window object and where
    events are fired...
    ... [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/4

      [34] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/4

    DS: we've already talked about this

    AB: this in the RAISED state; is that OK?

    DS: yes

    AB: anything else on Issue #44?

    [ No ]

ISSUE-39 (related to action 320 above)

    AB: issue is: Consider changing ordering/firing of mutation events?
    ... [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39
    ... any discussion on this issue?

      [35] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/39

    DS: there are no related actions
    ... Olli, what are your thoughts?

    OP: I'd like to get comments from Opera
    ... I think Jonas wants to change it
    ... anyone else?

    DS: I think Maciej

    OP: it's bad for implementations but OK for content authors

    DS: but if perf is bad then that's bad for the authors too

    OP: not clear when the events should be fired

    AB: since Opera hasn't addressed Action #320, seems like we should
    defer discussion until next week

    DS: agree

    OP: back to mutation events; chaper 1.7.7 ...
    ... the grey/gray block text
    ... why was that added?
    ...
    [36]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Even
    ts/html/DOM3-Events.html?rev=1.20&content-type=text/html;%20charset=
    iso-8859-1#events-Events-eventgroupings-mutationevents

      [36] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/DOM-
Level-3-Events/html/DOM3-Events.html?rev=1.20&content-type=text/html;%
20charset=iso-8859-1#events-Events-eventgroupings-mutationevents

    DS: this was added for performance reasons
    ... in SVG, create element is used to make trees in the DOM but not
    in the document
    ... mutation events aren't fired for things that are not in the
    document

    OP: I don't understand why

    <shepazu> I propose that we state explicitly in the spec that if
    there is no event listener registered, and if the event does not
    have a default handler, then the implementation may choose not to
    fire an event for that action (which is what browsers do)

    AB: any comments on Doug's proposal?

    OP: browsers do that for mutuation events
    ... other events don't slow things down as much

Publication schedule

    AB: the question is: Are we still expecting to have a new Editor's
    draft on 2009-03-18?

    DS: yes, that is still the plan
    ... don't expect it to be ready to publish by then
    ... This is Action #321
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/321

      [37] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/321

    AB: keep it open?

    DS: yes

    AB: so that would be another WD, right?

    DS: yes

    AB: any discussion on the LCWD?

    DS: no we haven't discussed that yet; one step at a time

    OP: events are hard; must get it right and they are core to so many
    other specs

Other overdue action items?

    AB: DOM3E Issues and Actions
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
    ... what is Carmelo's role?

      [38] http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2

    DS: helping with the test development

AOB

    AB: anything?

    DS: none

    OP: none

    AB: meeting adjourned

    Title: DOM 3 Events Voice Conference

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: shepazu to coordinate with SVG WG about 'window', to
    add behavior like HTML's [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/11-webapps-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Sunday, 15 March 2009 05:09:28 GMT

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