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Re: IME events

From: Olli Pettay <Olli.Pettay@helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:26:25 +0300
Message-ID: <4A2CD941.8000303@helsinki.fi>
To: Daniel Danilatos <daniel@danilatos.com>
CC: Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org>, www-dom@w3.org, hbono@chromium.org, mnakano@mozilla-japan.org
On 6/8/09 11:22 AM, Daniel Danilatos wrote:
> Hey guys,
>
> [+Bono Hironori from Chromium]
>
> I've just had a lengthy email discussion about IMEs with
> Nakano Masayuki of Mozilla. I think there's a few pieces missing so far
> in diagrams [3] and [4] linked in the previous email. There's a few
> points to discuss (hopefully in detail during the telcon)
Might be better to discuss (also) here so that people not attending 
telcon can participate too.


> but I'll just
> raise a couple now, to see what thoughts people have for starters:
>
> 1) Non-key input (clicking an option in an IME menu, speech input, etc)

[3] and [4] were made to understand key event flow, so that is why they
don't handle for example speech input.



> 2) TSF (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms629032(VS.85).aspx)
> for Windows involves requiring locking of the text whilst the IME makes
> changes, then unlocking. I'd like to see the web app have some control
> over this. For example, to prepare a section of the document for change,
> and have a contract between the app and the browser about what parts are
> OK to change and what aren't (otherwise it's back to relying on mutation
> events if the app can't be certain about which parts of the DOM the
> browser will touch and which it won't). This is an example of something
> fairly complicated, I wonder what other kinds of IME APIs there are that
> have similar complexities - I'm no expert.
>
> On a higher level note, the main thing I'd like to see is the web app
> being able to preview and have control over any changes the browser
> wishes to make to the DOM in a contentEditable region. That way mutation
> events won't be needed at all for those use cases (they are barely
> usable now anyway, because they (a) do not give much information about
> user intent - did the user just type, or paste, or hit undo, who knows?
> and (b) they are mostly after-the-fact, always non-cancelable, etc).
>
> Cheers,
> Dan
>
> On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org
> <mailto:schepers@w3.org>> wrote:
>
>     Hi, Folks-
>
>     I will be hosting a F2F at my house next week, but we will be
>     reconvening the telcons week after next, probably on Wednesday, June
>     17 or Thursday, June 18.  Either day works for me, but finding a
>     good time for everyone might be challenging: we typically have
>     attendees from Finland (Olli Pettay of Mozilla), from US West Coast
>     (Travis Leithead and Jacob ??, of Microsoft), US East Coast (myself,
>     and sometimes some government folks who are helping with testing),
>     and now Sydney, Australia (Dan Danilatos, of Google Wave). [1]
>
>     Olli says:
>     "For me the best days are Wednesday and Thursday, 10:00am-01:00am (EET).
>       Monday and Tuesday evenings/nights are also possible."
>
>     Travis says:
>     "Jacob and I are available for telecons 8-5 pm (perhaps a little
>       later if needed)."
>
>     Pretty much any time on Wednesday or Thursday works for me (late
>     afternoon is best).  Looking at TimeAndDate [2], it looks like 21:00
>     UTC on Wednesday might work, if Dan is a morning person (otherwise
>     it would be pretty cruel to him).
>
>
>     The proposed agenda is (what else?) mutation events and a sane
>     keyboard model.  The telcon will last one hour.  So, I would greatly
>     appreciate keeping up the email dialog on mutation events (I will
>     compile the use cases and requirements on the wiki, as they roll
>     in).  It may be that we don't "solve" mutation events for DOM3
>     Events, but put together another dedicated spec to address the use
>     cases in another way, and caution people about the costs of mutation
>     events.
>
>     In addition, I'm hoping that we have a flowchart of keyboard event
>     models by that time, for both IE (Travis and Jacob are working on
>     this), and if possible, for WebKit.  We have my rough draft of an
>     idealized model [3], and Olli's more accurate Gecko model [4].
>
>     Dan, or anyone on your team, or anyone at all, could you work on a
>     WebKit keyboard event model flowchart?
>
>     When I get them all, I'll normalize them for easy comparison, and we
>     can work to produce a unified model that works as widely as
>     possible.  If anyone wants to send in addition flowcharts for other
>     implementations (including mobiles), that would also be welcome.  I
>     don't know that we'll be able to solve the IME issues, but if we
>     can, we will.
>
>     [1]
>     http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=6&day=17&year=2009&p2=43&p3=101&p4=234&p5=240&iv=0
>     <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=6&day=17&year=2009&p2=43&p3=101&p4=234&p5=240&iv=0>
>     [2]
>     http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=6&day=17&hour=21&min=0&sec=0&p1=43&p2=101&p3=234&p4=240
>     <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingdetails.html?year=2009&month=6&day=17&hour=21&min=0&sec=0&p1=43&p2=101&p3=234&p4=240>
>     [3]
>     http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/proposals/d3e-keyflow.svg
>     [4]
>     http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/DOM-Level-3-Events/proposals/keyflow-gecko.svg
>
>
>     Regards-
>     -Doug Schepers
>     W3C Team Contact, SVG and WebApps WGs
>
>
Received on Monday, 8 June 2009 09:27:20 GMT

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