W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-dom-ts@w3.org > March 2004

Re: Test suite validity

From: Mary Brady <mbrady@nist.gov>
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 08:49:25 -0500
Message-ID: <009601c40838$d7893220$6400a8c0@sdct.nist.gov>
To: "Ian Hickson" <ian@hixie.ch>, <www-qa@w3.org>, <www-dom-ts@w3.org>
Cc: Tantek Çelik <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>, <dom@w3.org>, <wchang@nist.gov>, <tmichel@w3.org>, <mary.brady@nist.gov>, <bradp@microsoft.com>

Ian,

I've forwarded your comments to the DOM Test Suite mailing list, where they
can be properly addressed.  I will
have to download the current version to properly address the rest of your
concerns.  I want to assure you that we
welcome all feedback, and if there are errors in the test suite, then they
will be addressed.  I will go back through the archives,
but I do seem to recall that Brad's Test Suite Principles were addressed
[1].  It is true that the tests rely on the
harness -- much effort has been put into ensuring that the harness will work
for your needs, and in particular,
for Opera [2], where test results from 2002 indicate that the harness was
used to test Opera [3].  The test suite is used
to test many implementations, some are browser oriented, but many are not.
I do agree that you want to minimize side
effects as best you can, but it turns out for DOM, whose purpose is to
manipulate other technologies, you cannot do this entirely.
Many of the complexities of the test harness stem from dealing with other
technologies, and how each implementation deals with
them.

--Mary

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom-ts/2002Aug/0014.html
[2]
http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?type-index=www-dom-ts&index-type=t&keywords=Opera
[3]
http://www.w3.org/2002/11/DOM-Level-2-HTML-Results/Opera-7.0-build-2345-Win32-Windows-XP.html

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Hickson" <ian@hixie.ch>
To: <www-qa@w3.org>
Cc: "Tantek Çelik" <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>; <dom@w3.org>;
<wchang@nist.gov>; <tmichel@w3.org>; <mary.brady@nist.gov>;
<bradp@microsoft.com>
Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 7:35 AM
Subject: Test suite validity


>
>
> A week ago I gave a quick talk on the panel on Test Suites at the W3C
> Plenary Day [1], and one of the points I made was the principle that test
> suites should be valid [2]. To illustrate this, I noted that about two
> years ago Tantek found 18 test suites (mostly linked to from the W3C
> pages) that were invalid, and that 12 of those test suites were in fact
> still invalid today.
>
> I randomly clicked on one of those 12, and it happened to be the NIST DOM
> test suite [3], and yes, it was still invalid.
>
> The last panelist (Mary Brady, NIST) claimed that what was shown to be
> invalid was simply an old version of the test suite, and that the newest
> version of the test suite *is* valid [4].
>
> This turns to be a false assertion and thus I felt obligated to clarify
> that here.
>
> It is true that the page from which the new tests can be downloaded is now
> valid, however, that is simply an overview page, and is neither a test
> suite nor a test itself.
>
> In fact, the tests themselves are not even available at their own URIs
> (despite these being tests hosted by the World Wide _Web_ Consortium).
> This means it is impossible to link to a particular test, and therefore to
> validate it using the W3C validator [5], and provide a URI that
> demonstrates its validity or lack thereof in this case.
>
> However, curiosity got the best of me so I eventually downloaded the
tests,
> and found a number of problems:
>
> 1. The tests _are_ invalid. (No DOCTYPE, for one, in the HTML
>    versions.)
>
> 2. Every test is in the region of 4k, about 3k more than should be
>    necessary for even a complex test.
>
> 3. The harness is so complicated it doesn't even support Opera. (Test
>    harnesses shouldn't even remotely be complicated enough that that
>    is a problem, as I mentioned in my talk.)
>
> 4. I couldn't determine the pass condition of any of the tests I
>    randomly picked. As far as I can tell they _require_ the harness.
>    This makes the tests basically useless for QA purposes.
>
> 5. Even on a supported browser I couldn't determine how to use the
>    harness without detailed examination of the instructions.
>
> 6. Even once I'd got that working, all I got was a list of failed
>    tests, with no easy way of getting from there to the page to
>    examine the exact problem (e.g. with a debugger).
>
> 7. I couldn't understand the tests even after looking at them, despite
>    very good familiarity with the DOM specifications.
>
> To some extent this is not new information. It has been pointed out to me
> that over a year and half ago Brad Pettit (Microsoft) proposed a set of
> principles for the DOM test suites based on the document that I used as
> the basis for my presentation:
>
>    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2002JulSep/0080.html
>
> It covered a number of these problems (tests are invalid, harness is too
> complex, harness is required, tests are not atomic, test suite is not easy
> to use), and yet none of these problems were subsequently addressed.
>
> Sadly it appears this is not the only test suite with these problems. I
> looked at some other test suites, such as the SMIL test suite, and was
> shocked to see that many of the tests aren't even valid _SMIL_, let alone
> HTML. For instance, this test uses invalid, non-W3C, IE-specific hooks to
> test a SMIL feature, instead of using the SMIL namespace (note the the
> fact that the MIME type is text/html, not an XML MIME type):
>
>
http://www.w3.org/2001/SMIL20/testsuite/interop2/animation/set_attName_left_target_begin_dur_repeatDur.htm
>
> I could find nothing in the SMIL specification to suggest that this test
> should even remotely work as described. (If I am wrong in this regard I
> would love to be corrected.)
>
> (I should admit that the Selectors test suite [6], for which I am
> responsible, is also known to contain a number of validation errors [7].
> These were noticed recently and are being corrected [8].)
>
> In conclusion, I am concerned that even amongst those of us who subscribe
> to the notions I described in my talk last week, there is a large gap
> between the theory and the practice.
>
> -- References --
> [1] http://www.w3.org/2004/03/TechPlenAgenda.html
> [2]
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/testsuitedocumentation.html#validtests
> [3] http://xw2k.sdct.itl.nist.gov/xml/dom-test-suite.html
> [4] available from http://www.w3.org/DOM/Test/
> [5] http://validator.w3.org/
> [6] http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/
> [7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2004JanMar/0274.html
> [8] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2004JanMar/0275.html
>
> -- 
> Ian Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
> U+1047E                                         /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
> http://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>
>
>
>
Received on Friday, 12 March 2004 08:50:12 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Monday, 6 April 2009 12:58:49 GMT