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Re: example: the HTML WG process is not working

From: Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:10:59 -0400
Message-ID: <4F730DE3.60407@w3.org>
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
CC: Philippe Le Hegaret <plh@w3.org>, www-archive <www-archive@w3.org>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, "Michael(tm) Smith" <mike@w3.org>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
On 3/28/2012 8:56 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> this is an example of a bug that was escalated as per the HTML WG 
> process that went rough the process and was deemed as having consensus 
> in the working group not because there is consensus, but because 
> people who may disagree with the change did not participate.

Not sure what to do with this observation.  Our specs are always a 
consensus of those that participate.  If some choose not to participate 
then the spec will not reflect their views.

>
> The editor obviously disagreed as he rejected the bug, but did not 
> enter into any further discussion, his recent remarks on IRC strongly 
> suggest he thinks its a bad idea.
> If the process is designed to standardise HTML then its not working, 
> as I point out, when the editor disagrees with a change he simply 
> creates another fork between the specs or to put it another way if the 
> working group does not accept what the editor has in the spec another 
> fork is created.

Not sure what to do with this observation, either.  The process is for 
the Chairs to determine the consensus of the Working Group even if the 
editor disagrees.  Sounds like that is what is happening.  What are the 
alternatives?  The editor is entitled to his opinion if he disagrees.  
And the WG is entitled to their opinion if they disagree with the editor.

In terms of the divergence of the specs, I think it is a success story 
that we have maintained alignment as long as we have.  And I agree it 
would be highly desirable to continue to maintain alignment for HTML 5, 
as well as HTML.next.  But it is mathematically impossible for us to 
freeze a REC level HTML 5 and expect that to be in perfect alignment 
with a changing WHAT WG LS.

>
> We appear to have gone from a state where there was active 
> participation to a state where there is passive denial of the 
> legitimacy of the process resulting in a consensual non-consensus.
>
> none of which can be described with a straight face as a working process.
>
> regards
> stevef
>
> On 28 March 2012 13:39, Jeff Jaffe <jeff@w3.org <mailto:jeff@w3.org>> 
> wrote:
>
>     Steve,
>
>     I apologize, but I don't know what this is.
>
>     Is this:
>
>     1. fyi, about timelines of issues?
>     2. An escalation of the Chairs for not dealing with this issue per
>     the HTML 5 WG process?
>     3. An observation that the finalized HTML 5 spec as it moves
>     forward (LC--> CR --> REC) will diverge from a continually updated
>     WHAT WG Living Standard (with presumably re-syncing as we move to
>     HTML.next)?
>     4. Something else?
>
>     Thanks.
>
>     Jeff
>
>
>     On 3/28/2012 8:19 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>>     I want to clarify one point that I implied by this statement
>>
>>     "I suspect while this change will be applied to the W3C HTML5 but
>>     not to the WHAT WG, resulting in further divergence between the 2
>>     specs and further dilution of standardized authoring advice (in
>>     this case)."
>>
>>     The active involvement of people, such as the editor in the HTML
>>     WG process, does not necessarily result in standardization of
>>     HTML being advanced. If the editor does not agree with a change
>>     to HTML decided by the working group its only applied to the W3C
>>     HTML5 spec [1].
>>
>>     [1]
>>     http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/introduction.html#is-this-html5?
>>
>>     regards
>>     Stevef
>>
>>     On 28 March 2012 11:35, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com
>>     <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Timeline of an issue: this is an example of a re-ocurring
>>         pattern [1]
>>         Over a  5 month period, feedback and input was called for, a
>>         detailed proposal was provided - total silence ensued, after
>>         the process is complete the editor comments on IRC.
>>         I suspect while this change will be applied to the W3C HTML5
>>         but not to the WHAT WG, resulting in further divergence
>>         between the 2 specs and further dilution of standardized
>>         authoring advice (in this case).
>>
>>         Timeline of an issue:
>>
>>         **Bug 14937*
>>         <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14937>
>>         -Replace poor coding example for figure with multiple images
>>         opened: 2011-11-25 21:20:52 UTC
>>
>>         * editor rejects
>>         https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14937#c1
>>         <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14937#c1%20>2011-12-07
>>         23:01:38 UTC
>>
>>             Status: Rejected
>>             Change Description: no spec change
>>             Rationale: This isn't an antipattern. It is a best
>>             practice. If current ATs
>>             don't make it accessible, then I recommend approaching AT
>>             vendors and
>>             explaining to them that they're not properly exposing
>>             HTML semantics.
>>
>>         * feedback provided on rejection:
>>         https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14937#c2
>>
>>         * No further response from editor
>>
>>         * escalated to issue: Issue 190
>>         <https://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/190> 2011-12-08
>>         10:27:42 UTC
>>
>>         * I submit a proposal
>>         <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle_captions>:
>>         January 18th, 2012.
>>
>>         * Chairs Solicit Alternate Proposals or Counter-Proposals
>>         <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jan/0127.html>
>>         Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:42:45
>>
>>         * NO counter proposals or feedback on  proposal
>>
>>         * CfC: Close ISSUE-190 coding-example by Amicable Resolution
>>         <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0463.html>issued
>>         Tue, 28 Feb 2012 13:23:27
>>
>>             As we have received no counter-proposals or alternate
>>             proposals, the
>>             chairs are issuing a call for consensus on the proposal
>>             that we do have.
>>
>>             If no objections are raised to this call by March 7th
>>             2012, we will
>>             direct the editor to make the proposed change. If anybody
>>             would like to
>>             raise an objection during this time, we strongly
>>             encourage them to
>>             accompany their objection with a concrete and complete
>>             change proposal.
>>
>>
>>         * No responses to CFC
>>
>>         * Chairs issue: Working Group Decision:Close ISSUE-190
>>         coding-example by Amicable Resolution
>>         <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0731.html>Mon,
>>         26 Mar 2012
>>
>>         Commenst by editor on IRC: 2012-03-28 (it appears that this
>>         is the first time the editor has looked at the proposal)
>>
>>          1. # <http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120328#l-15>
>>             [00:16] <Hixie>
>>             http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle_captions#Details
>>
>>          2. # <http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120328#l-16>
>>             [00:16] <Hixie> really?
>>          3. # <http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120328#l-17>
>>             [00:17] <Hixie> we're actually going to put an example in
>>             the spec _encouraging_ nested figures?
>>
>>
>>         [1]
>>
>>           * Working Group Decision: Close ISSUE-192 title-attribute
>>             by Amicable Resolution
>>             <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0558.html>
>>             /(Tuesday, 20 March)/
>>           * Working Group Decision: Close ISSUE-188:
>>             generic-track-format by Amicable Resolution
>>             <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0557.html>
>>             /(Tuesday, 20 March)/
>>           * Working Group Decision: Close ISSUE-187
>>             validity-stability by Amicable Resolution
>>             <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0556.html>
>>             /(Tuesday, 20 March)/
>>           * Working Group Decision: Close ISSUE-182
>>             footnote-recommendation by Amicable Resolution
>>             <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0555.html>
>>             /(Tuesday, 20 March)/
>>           * Working Group Decision: Close ISSUE-179 av_param by
>>             Amicable Resolution
>>             <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0554.html>
>>             /(Tuesday, 20 March)/
>>           * Working Group Decision: Close ISSUE-170 rel-uri-valid by
>>             Amicable Resolution
>>             <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0553.html>
>>             /(Tuesday, 20 March)/
>>
>>
>>
>>         -- 
>>         with regards
>>
>>         Steve Faulkner
>>         Technical Director - TPG
>>
>>         www.paciellogroup.com <http://www.paciellogroup.com> |
>>         www.HTML5accessibility.com
>>         <http://www.HTML5accessibility.com> |
>>         www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
>>         <http://www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner>
>>         HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
>>         dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
>>         <http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/>
>>         Web Accessibility Toolbar -
>>         www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>>         <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com <http://www.paciellogroup.com> | 
> www.HTML5accessibility.com <http://www.HTML5accessibility.com> | 
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner <http://www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner>
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - 
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ <http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/>
> Web Accessibility Toolbar - 
> www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
Received on Wednesday, 28 March 2012 13:11:13 GMT

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