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RE: IE8 incompatibility issues (was: Re: Issue: IE 8 adds new DOM Properties for ARIA -- not compatible with other impls)

From: Aaron M Leventhal <aleventh@us.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:15:42 -0400
To: Marc Silbey <marcsil@windows.microsoft.com>
Cc: Anne van Kesteren <annevk@opera.com>, Charles McCathieNevile <chaals@opera.com>, Chris Wilson <Chris.Wilson@microsoft.com>, Cullen Sauls <cullens@microsoft.com>, Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>, Jon Gunderson <jongund@uiuc.edu>, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>, Simon Pieters <simonp@opera.com>, "w3c-wai-pf@w3.org" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>, w3c-wai-pf-request@w3.org, "www-archive@w3.org" <www-archive@w3.org>
Message-ID: <OFAFAE38D7.334E88E1-ON8525740B.00644721-8525740B.0064734B@us.ibm.com>
Take a look at the user agent implementors guide before going too much 
further. It will hopefully save you lots of work in the long run!

Much of the job of mapping ARIA  from the DOM is straightforward, but not 
all of it is.

- Aaron

Marc Silbey <marcsil@windows.microsoft.com> 
Sent by: w3c-wai-pf-request@w3.org
03/13/2008 01:16 PM

Anne van Kesteren <annevk@opera.com>, Simon Pieters <simonp@opera.com>, 
Dave Pawson <dave.pawson@gmail.com>, "w3c-wai-pf@w3.org" 
<w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>, Chris Wilson <Chris.Wilson@microsoft.com>
Cullen Sauls <cullens@microsoft.com>, Jon Gunderson <jongund@uiuc.edu>, 
Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS, Charles McCathieNevile 
<chaals@opera.com>, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>, 
"www-archive@w3.org" <www-archive@w3.org>, Richard 
RE: IE8 incompatibility issues (was: Re: Issue: IE 8 adds new DOM 
Properties for ARIA -- not compatible with other impls)

I'm sorry for my delayed reply - as Chris mentioned, I was at MIX last 
week, on vacation until Tuesday and out of the office yesterday with a 
sinus infection...it's been a busy :)

Before I dive into the details of this thread, I want to step back and say 
that I'm excited for IE to be a part of ARIA and to be mostly in-line with 
other browser implementations with our beta - I think we're working 
together to make a very positive change in web accessibility.

We've been testing our implementation and will continue to test it using 
the test cases linked to in the best practices document. That said, we're 
clearly not done with ARIA yet. I appreciate the open feedback we’re 
getting on our implementation now and I'd like the feedback to continue to 
flow so we can release IE8 with as close to 100% ARIA interoperability 
with other browsers as possible.

Now I want to respond to the specific issue this thread started with:

Chris is right that our top goal for ARIA is to be interoperable with 
other browsers. He's also right that we did not intentionally add 
functionality to our ARIA implementation. I want to share our 
implementation details with the group to help answer folks questions:

Cullen (on CC) is one of our OM developers and he implemented ARIA:

"In IE, attributes need a name. The name needs to be defined such that we 
can provide programmatic access to it. For example, a name of “aria-busy” 
cannot be used in the COM accessor method names (get_aria-busy() is 
invalid syntax). Therefore, the property needs a way to expose both the 
dash-syntax as well as a way for the COM interface to access the property. 
Our convention in IE is to camel-case the name in place of the dash 
(aria-busy becomes ariaBusy). Then, we specifically say that the 
property’s true name is “aria-busy” such that it is parsed in the HTML and 
that get/setAttribute() methods work as expected (in IE8 mode). Because 
the attribute name contains a dash, the accessor syntax in JavaScript that 
uses the format of element.foo cannot use the true name of the property 
(element.aria-busy is invalid syntax), so IE exposes the property via the 
camel-case format.

All of this is done automatically by our tools that take our interface 
definitions (including property and method definitions) and generate the 
necessary code for them. Our ARIA implementation did not add anything in 
the way attributes are handled. The behavior being observed is just how IE 
exposes properties/methods that have a name that contains invalid 
characters for programmatic purposes."

If together we decide that we don't want to allow this DOM attribute 
behavior then we can either advise developers not to use it in the best 
practices document or we (IE) will look into doing extra work to remove 
the functionality in our ARIA implementation. I'd like to talk about these 
options and any others on one of the next wg calls.


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Wilson
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 3:19 PM
To: Anne van Kesteren; Simon Pieters; Dave Pawson
Cc: Jon Gunderson; Aaron M Leventhal; Charles McCathieNevile; Marc Silbey; 
David Poehlman; www-archive@w3.org
Subject: RE: IE8 incompatibility issues (was: Re: Issue: IE 8 adds new DOM 
Properties for ARIA -- not compatible with other impls)

Anne van Kesteren [mailto:annevk@opera.com] wrote:
>In IE8 you can do
>   element.ariaDisabled = true
>This is not possible in any other browser. In other browsers you are
>required to do
>   element.setAttribute("aria-disabled", "true")

Yup, that's clear now.  (To be more clear - the latter works in IE as 

>So if people use the former it will only work in IE8. Also, the idea was
>that ARIA scripts would work for older browsers as well as AT could 
>read the DOM. If you introduce DOM attributes (such as ariaDisabled) this
>whould no longer be true.

That sounds like "we should never introduce DOM attributes again, and 
everyone should just always use getAttribute()?"

>> Yeah, I see that, and I've been thinking about that very issue.  Not
>> clear to me if Opera is happy if we simply make it so a standards-mode
>> DOCTYPE is necessary, as some of the invective is still demanding
>> removal of IE7 compatibility altogether.
>We're not happy with documentMode, but making X-UA-Compatible work just
>for standards mode would be an improvement. Just like doing IE8 mode by
>default is an improvement.

That sounds like a no.


Received on Thursday, 13 March 2008 18:18:07 UTC

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