- From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
- Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:26:32 +0100
- To: "Richard Schwerdtfeger" <schwer@us.ibm.com>
- Cc: alfred.s.gilman@ieee.org, "Patrick H. Lauke" <redux@splintered.co.uk>, www-archive@w3.org
this is an attempt to compile into a single archive the threads
which have transpired on various w3c emailing lists in reference
to the accessibility dependencies of and support for CSS System
Preferences as defined in CSS2.x, deprecated in CSS3-Color and
inserted into CSS3-UI
From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:01:52 +0000
To: wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-liaison@w3.org
Cc: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subj: CSS User Preferences for Colors Support Query
Message-Id: <20071211160153.M72128@hicom.net>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0026.html]
aloha!
is anyone aware of ANY user agents that support "User preferences for
colors", as defined in CSS2? it seems like one of the most sane
approaches to honoring the user's default operating system environment's
settings:
18.2 User preferences for colors
[source: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/ui.html#system-colors]
[compare to: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ui.html]
In addition to being able to assign pre-defined color values to text,
backgrounds, etc., CSS2 allows authors to specify colors in a manner that
integrates them into the user's graphic environment. Style rules that
take into account user preferences thus offer the following advantages:
1. They produce pages that fit the user's defined look and feel.
2. They produce pages that may be more accessible as the current
user settings may be related to a disability.
The set of values defined for system colors is intended to be exhaustive.
For systems that do not have a corresponding value, the specified value
should be mapped to the nearest system attribute, or to a default color.
The following lists additional values for color-related CSS attributes
and their general meaning. Any color property (e.g., 'color' or
'background-color') can take one of the following names. Although these
are case-insensitive, it is recommended that the mixed capitalization
shown below be used, to make the names more legible.
ActiveBorder
Active window border.
ActiveCaption
Active window caption.
AppWorkspace
Background color of multiple document interface.
Background
Desktop background.
ButtonFace
Face color for three-dimensional display elements.
ButtonHighlight
Dark shadow for three-dimensional display elements (for edges facing
away from the light source).
ButtonShadow
Shadow color for three-dimensional display elements.
ButtonText
Text on push buttons.
CaptionText
Text in caption, size box, and scrollbar arrow box.
GrayText
Grayed (disabled) text. This color is set to #000 if the current
display driver does not support a solid gray color.
Highlight
Item(s) selected in a control.
HighlightText
Text of item(s) selected in a control.
InactiveBorder
Inactive window border.
InactiveCaption
Inactive window caption.
InactiveCaptionText
Color of text in an inactive caption.
InfoBackground
Background color for tooltip controls.
InfoText
Text color for tooltip controls.
Menu
Menu background.
MenuText
Text in menus.
Scrollbar
Scroll bar gray area.
ThreeDDarkShadow
Dark shadow for three-dimensional display elements.
ThreeDFace
Face color for three-dimensional display elements.
ThreeDHighlight
Highlight color for three-dimensional display elements.
ThreeDLightShadow
Light color for three-dimensional display elements (for edges facing
the light source).
ThreeDShadow
Dark shadow for three-dimensional display elements.
Window
Window background.
WindowFrame
Window frame.
WindowText
Text in windows.
For example, to set the foreground and background colors of a paragraph
to
the same foreground and background colors of the user's window, write the
following:
P { color: WindowText; background-color: Window }
--- END EXTENDED QUOTE
the CSS2.1 draft notes that the UI section on using system colors
and respecting user settings will be deprecated with the CSS3-color
module (http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color)
these CSS properties are the sanest way to respect a user's operating
system preferences, and should be promoted -- and perhaps highlit as
an important accessibility feature in any final comments submitted to
the CSS 2.1 editors...
gregory.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of
focus. -- Mark Twain
--------------------------------------------------------------
=-=-=
From: Christophe Strobbe <christophe.strobbe@esat.kuleuven.be>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:50:44 +0100
Subj: Re: CSS User Preferences for Colors Support Query
To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>, wai-xtech@w3.org
Cc: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20071211174209.042ef240@esat.kuleuven.be>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0028.html]
Hi Gregory,
At 17:01 11/12/2007, Gregory J. Rosmaita wrote:
>is anyone aware of ANY user agents that support "User preferences for
>colors", as defined in CSS2? it seems like one of the most sane
>approaches to honoring the user's default operating system environment's
>settings:
>
>18.2 User preferences for colors
>[source: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/ui.html#system-colors]
>[compare to: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ui.html]
Some of the CSS support charts on the web provide information on this;
I have found two that claim that some user agents support these values:
* According to <http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/table.html> (navigate to
the heading "color referencing methods") claims that "UI colors" are
supported by "Moz5", Internet Explorer versions 4 and 5, not supported by
Opera 3.6 and "destroyed" in Netscape Navigator 4 and Internet Explorer 3
(you can see it's an old chart ;-) ).
* According to <http://www.webdevout.net/browser-support-css#css2units>,
UI colours are also supported by Internet Explorer 6 and 7, by Firefox2
and by Opera 9.
(I have never seen these units "in the wild".)
Best regards,
Christophe
--
Christophe Strobbe
K.U.Leuven - Dept. of Electrical Engineering - SCD
Research Group on Document Architectures
Kasteelpark Arenberg 10 bus 2442
B-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
BELGIUM
tel: +32 16 32 85 51
http://www.docarch.be/
=-=-=
From: Lisa Pappas <Lisa.Pappas@sas.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:17:44 -0500
To: Christophe Strobbe <christophe.strobbe@esat.kuleuven.be>, "Gregory
J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>, "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
CC: "w3c-wai-ua@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>, "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-
wai-gl@w3.org>
Subj: RE: CSS User Preferences for Colors Support Query
Message-ID:
<345520A34347BA49B798F70B218ACD130436B3D542@MERCMBX14.na.sas.com>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0030.html]
Hi, Gregory,
I am not aware of ANY user agents that support User preference for colors
as defined in CSS2. And I agree that it is one of the most sane and
logical approaches. I worked with a legally blind customer who, on
Windows
98, literally had 7 different OS themes, each tailored to how a single
application happened to inherit or interpret the element settings. This
also meant that he couldn't run some of the apps at the same time,
because key areas weren't visible in one theme or another.
This makes me wonder....Where should W3C prescribe which system color(s)
an ARIA element inherited? An element with wai-role=button has background
color from ButtonFace and its text from ButtonColor.
-Lisa
=-=-=
From: Charles McCathieNevile <chaals@opera.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:41:58 +0100
To: "Lisa Pappas" <Lisa.Pappas@sas.com>, "Christophe Strobbe"
<christophe.strobbe@esat.kuleuven.be>, "Gregory J. Rosmaita"
<oedipus@hicom.net>, "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Cc: "w3c-wai-ua@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>, "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-
wai-gl@w3.org>
Subj: Re: CSS User Preferences for Colors Support Query
Message-ID: <op.t26rn8r7wxe0ny@pc078.coreteam.oslo.opera.com>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0031.html]
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:17:44 +0100, Lisa Pappas <Lisa.Pappas@sas.com>
wrote:
> Hi, Gregory,
>
> I am not aware of ANY user agents that support User preference for
> colors as defined in CSS2. And I agree that it is one of the most sane
> and logical approaches. I worked with a legally blind customer who, on
> Windows 98, literally had 7 different OS themes, each tailored to how
a
> single application happened to inherit or interpret the element
> settings. This also meant that he couldn't run some of the apps at the
> same time, because key areas weren't visible in one theme or another.
You can set basic colours in Opera pretty easily in the preferences
dialogues. (OK Gregory, you can't until you ahve a working screen reader
build, but they are coming)
You can set a user style sheet, too, under Preferences -> Advanced ->
Content -> Style Options, which is nice. But in most cases you want to
change a few things, so you need to set one per site:
Preferences -> Advanced -> Content -> Manage Site Preferences. Add the
site in question, then select the display tab for adding your style
sheet
to only apply to that site, so you can look at how it uses the colours
and
classes and whatever it is that you need to change.
...now to get an interface for easily sharing those setups - or should
we
finish the screen reader work first, or concentrate on ARIA, or fix some
broken websites with shiny new beta applications, or...
> This makes me wonder....Where should W3C prescribe which system color
(s)
> an ARIA element inherited? An element with wai-role=button has
> background color from ButtonFace and its text from ButtonColor.
Well, that is a smart way to implement. W3C describes access to those
colours - and you can use them in browsers now. Developers just need to
learn that trick.
cheers
Chaals
=-=-=
From: Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:08:09 +0000
To: wai-xtech@w3.org
Subj: Re: CSS User Preferences for Colors Support Query
Message-ID: <475EEE29.2000203@splintered.co.uk>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0032.html]
Gregory J. Rosmaita wrote:
> is anyone aware of ANY user agents that support "User preferences for
> colors", as defined in CSS2? it seems like one of the most sane
> approaches to honoring the user's default operating system environment's
> settings:
From some tests I did back in 2005, I seem to remember that IE 6 (and
possibly earlier) and Firefox do actually support system colors.
I raised the question of why system colors were deprecated in CSS3's
color module
(see the thread starting here:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Sep/0010.html)
but the discussion got nowhere fast, and the suggestion to retain system
colors was simply rebutted with "that's what 'appearance' is for".
For kicks, I reinstated my old test page
http://dev.splintered.co.uk/system_prefs/
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
______________________________________________________________
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
______________________________________________________________
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
______________________________________________________________
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
=-=-=
From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:19:34 +0000
To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>, wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-
liaison@w3.org
Cc: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subj: Re: CSS User Preferences for Colors Support Query
Message-Id: <20071212040810.M87459@hicom.net>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0033.html]
aloha!
christophe -- thanks for your usual quick, concrete and precise response;
lisa - i agree this is something that should be discussed somewhere -- if
the purpose of web 2.0 applications and widgets is to mimic/mirror the
look/sound/feel of the "desktop experience" it would be at the very
least, a best practice to use the user preferences defined in
Section/Chapter 18 of CSS2/CSS 2.1
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/ui.html
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ui.html
chaals - i am DELIGHTED to hear that there is actually support for CSS2x
user preferences -- so, if anything, when commenting on the CSS21 draft,
we should highlight the advantages of supporting user preferences to
accessibility uses for user preferences (bang important goes to user,
user doesn't have to set color contrasts and preferences on an
application by application basis, as in the all-too-familiar scenario
described by lisa, etc.)...
patrick - thank you for the information on the succeeding CSS3 module --
as the CSS 2.1 CR draft clearly states:
<quote source="http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ui.html#system-colors">
Note. The System Colors are deprecated in the CSS3 Color Module
</quote>
thanks, too, for giving me the mental nudge i needed to locate my CSS3
modules issues list (which still needs some dusting off), as well as
making the fruits of your research and labor available to all...
could we enlist the support of those developing screen magnification
and screen tracking software in assisting us -- or, at least backing
our request -- to the Style activity that the concepts and constructs
outlined in
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/ui.html
aren't lost in a sea of dependencies? lisa, do you think that the User
Interface for CSS3, defined at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2000/WD-css3-userint-20000216
might be the best means of styling ARIA, or is it best to stick with
CSS2, which has actual implementations? note that the user interface
module is referenced from the CSS3-colors module, located at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/
which is the CSS3 module cited in the quote from the CSS 2.1 draft
above...
are either of these modules implemented, or is CSS2/CSS2.1 Section 18 the
model/syntax/structure to be followed? what is the opinion of anyone
involved with screen magnification slash screen tracking/isolating
software?
thank you all for such useful information,
gregory.
------------------------------------------------------
It is better to ask some of the questions than to know
all the answers. -- James Thurber
------------------------------------------------------
=-=-=
From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:18:08 +0000
To: wai-xtech@w3.org
Subj: CSS User Preferences
Message-Id: <20080212161452.M50984@hicom.net>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Feb/0048.html]
CSS User Preferences Support
this is to follow up on a point i raised at today's DHTML style guide
call -- the original post is archived at:
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0026.html
and is reproduced following this intro text; responses are archived at:
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0028.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0030.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0031.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0032.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/0033.html
--- ORIGINALLY POSTED TO XTech DECEMBER 2007 ---
is anyone aware of ANY user agents that support "User preferences for
colors", as defined in CSS2? it seems like one of the most sane
approaches to honoring the user's default operating system environment's
settings:
QUOTE
[source: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/ui.html#system-colors]
[compare to: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/ui.html]
18.2 User preferences for colors
In addition to being able to assign predefined color values to text,
backgrounds, etc., CSS2 allows authors to specify colors in a manner that
integrates them into the user's graphic environment. Style rules that
take into account user preferences thus offer the following advantages:
1. They produce pages that fit the user's defined look and feel.
2. They produce pages that may be more accessible as the current
user settings may be related to a disability.
The set of values defined for system colors is intended to be exhaustive.
For systems that do not have a corresponding value, the specified value
should be mapped to the nearest system attribute, or to a default color.
The following lists additional values for color-related CSS attributes
and their general meaning. Any color property (e.g., 'color' or
'background-color') can take one of the following names. Although these
are case-insensitive, it is recommended that the mixed capitalization
shown below be used, to make the names more legible.
ActiveBorder
Active window border.
ActiveCaption
Active window caption.
AppWorkspace
Background color of multiple document interface.
Background
Desktop background.
ButtonFace
Face color for three-dimensional display elements.
ButtonHighlight
Dark shadow for three-dimensional display elements (for edges facing
away from the light source).
ButtonShadow
Shadow color for three-dimensional display elements.
ButtonText
Text on push buttons.
CaptionText
Text in caption, size box, and scrollbar arrow box.
GrayText
Grayed (disabled) text. This color is set to #000 if the current
display driver does not support a solid gray color.
Highlight
Item(s) selected in a control.
HighlightText
Text of item(s) selected in a control.
InactiveBorder
Inactive window border.
InactiveCaption
Inactive window caption.
InactiveCaptionText
Color of text in an inactive caption.
InfoBackground
Background color for tooltip controls.
InfoText
Text color for tooltip controls.
Menu
Menu background.
MenuText
Text in menus.
Scrollbar
Scroll bar gray area.
ThreeDDarkShadow
Dark shadow for three-dimensional display elements.
ThreeDFace
Face color for three-dimensional display elements.
ThreeDHighlight
Highlight color for three-dimensional display elements.
ThreeDLightShadow
Light color for three-dimensional display elements (for edges facing
the light source).
ThreeDShadow
Dark shadow for three-dimensional display elements.
Window
Window background.
WindowFrame
Window frame.
WindowText
Text in windows.
For example, to set the foreground and background colors of a paragraph
to the same foreground and background colors of the user's window, write
the following:
P { color: WindowText; background-color: Window }
--- END EXTENDED QUOTE
the CSS2.1 draft notes that the UI section on using system colors
and respecting user settings will be deprecated with the CSS3-color
module (http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color)
these CSS properties are the sanest way to respect a user's operating
system preferences, and should be promoted -- and perhaps highlit as
an important accessibility feature in any final comments submitted to
the CSS 2.1 editors...
gregory.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of
focus. -- Mark Twain
--------------------------------------------------------------
=-=-=
From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:44:18 +0100
To: wai-xtech@w3.org, "Patrick H. Lauke" <redux@splintered.co.uk>
Subj: User Preferences for Colors, the CSS3-Color Module, & the CSS3-UI
Module
Message-Id: <20080721174313.M59641@hicom.net>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jul/0069.html]
aloha, all!
recently, a Last Call publication request for CSS3's color module:
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-color/
was posted to www-archive; the resultant thread can be found at:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Jul/thread.html#msg27
the upshot of this request, is a new Last Call draft of CSS3-color,
date-stamped 21 July 2008, which can be found at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-css3-color-20080721
this reminded me of a thread on wai-xtech from december 2007
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Dec/thread.html#msg26
in which i queried the list for information concerning support for the
CSS2 and CSS2.1 "User preferences for colors" -- the reply that stuck
with me from that thread was patrick lauke's reply, noting his query to
the www-style list inquiring why system colors have been deprecated in
CSS3's color module:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Sep/0010.html
in which patrick also referenced his "CSS System Preferences Test Page":
http://dev.splintered.co.uk/system_prefs/
as for the 21 July 2008 CSS3 Color draft, section 4.5 "CSS System Colors":
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-color/#css-system
is marked as "deprecated" -- at the very end of the section is a note
explaining:
<q
cite="http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-color/#css-system">
The CSS2 System Color values have been deprecated in favor of the CSS3 UI
'appearance' property for specifying the complete look of user interface
related elements
</q>
rather than providing a simple, straightforward means of applying
user-defined system preferences and colors as was the case with CSS2
and CSS2.1
there is a cautionary note which immediately follows section 4.5
<q
cite="http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-color/#notes">
4.6 Notes on using colors
Although colors can add significant amounts of information to document
and make them more readable, please consider the W3C Web Content
Accessibility Guidelines [WCAG] when including color in your documents.
[link] Guideline 2. Don't rely on color alone.
</q>
obviously, the best way to respect a user's preferences and settings is
to reuse system color values and preferences that a user has set for for
his or her system
the reference in the first quote, although it cites the "CSS3 UI
'appearance'", does not include a link to the CSS3-UI module, which has
been in Candidate Recommendation since 11 May 2004, and which is located
at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/
the pertinent portion of the CSS3-UI module is Section 5: "System
Appearance"; and the CSS3-UI 'appearance' values are defined at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/#appearance
<q
cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/#system">
CSS2 introduced the concept of system colors, which is a set of keywords
that allows authors to specify colors in a manner that integrates them
into the user's graphic environment. However, color is not the only
property for which native form controls have a default.
The properties defined and extended in this section refer to the
<appearance> value type, which may take one of the following values which
have been derived from the list of CSS2.1 System Colors ([CSS21], section
18.2), the list of HTML4 form controls ([HTML401], section 17), and
additional typical platform user interface (UI) controls (e.g. dialog
window, icon):
[list of properties and values snipped]
Conforming user agents must support the five generic appearance values:
'icon', 'window', 'button', 'menu' and 'field'. If a user agent or
platform does not support a specific user interface element (e.g.
'dialog'), it may apply the values for the respective generic user
interface element (e.g. 'window').
Note. This specification recommends that user agents allow users to
override system appearance and font selections with their own choices or
proportions, within the user agent. See the User Agent Accessibility
Guidelines, specifically Ensure user control of rendering ([UAAG10],
section 2 guideline 4).
</q>
patrick, have your inquiries ever been answered to your satisfaction?
the recorded "disposition of issues" in response your comment, referred
to above, logs
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0123.html
as the Group response, with the "resolution" being "no change"
is this something that WAI should be tracking and persuing? if so, how
far should the WAI go -- simply ask for a justification for the
deprecation of CSS3-Color's section 4.5 "CSS System Colors", or for
reinsertion of this particular section into the CSS3-Color module?
a few considerations:
1. the CSS3-UI spec has a dependency on the CSS3-Color module
(http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/#dependencies)
2. the CSS3-UI draft has been in candidate recommendation for slightly
over 4 years -- would it benefit accessibility for the WAI to argue
that since CSS3-UI remains in limbo and there are no documented
implementations of the CSS3-UI module
http://www.w3.org/Style/css3-updates/css3-ui-implementations
3. on the other hand, CSS3-Color, has cycled backwards from
"Candidate Recommendation" on 14 May 2003, to the new Last Call
draft issued 21 July 2008:
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color
the deadline for comments on the second Last Call draft for CSS3-color
is 1 September 2008
4. in the CSS Snapshot 2007 (a.k.a. "CSS Beijing") CSS3-Color is included
in the "Cascading Style Sheets Definition"
<q
cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/css-beijing/#css3">
3. Cascading Style Sheets Definition
At the time this specification enters Candidate Recommendation,
Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) is defined by the following
specifications. Each specification in this list builds on and possibly
modifies the definitions in the previous specifications, with the base
formed by CSS Level 2 Revision 1. (In other words, CSS is defined as
CSS Level 2 Revision 1, modified by CSS Namespaces, modified by
Selectors Level 3, etc.) A valid CSS document is one that conforms to
this definition.
CSS Level 2 Revision 1 (including errata)
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
CSS Namespaces
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-namespace/
Selectors Level 3
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/
CSS Color Level 3
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/
</q>
which seems to indicate that, due to all available developmental and
implementation information, the WAI SHOULD be advocating the restoration
of section 4.5 "CSS System Colors" in CSS3-Color itself, as CSS3-Color is
earmarked by the Style activity as part of the "CSS definition", whereas
there is absolutely no mention of CSS3-UI in the CSS Snapshot document
gregory.
--------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of
focus. -- Mark Twain
--------------------------------------------------------------
=-=-=
From: Al Gilman <Alfred.S.Gilman@IEEE.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:19:35 -0400
Cc: Hypertext CG <w3c-html-cg@w3.org>
To: Bert Bos <bert@w3.org>
Subj: accessibility dependency on system colors and module advance order
in CSS3
Message-Id: <FFB7BD51-13C2-4640-AA5F-6F5FF8292CB5@IEEE.org>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2008JulSep/0049.html]
<quote
cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-css3-color-20080721/#css-system">
The CSS2 System Color values have been deprecated in favor of the
CSS3 UI appearance property
</quote>
Access for people with impaired vision depends on the personalization
capability afforded
through CSS2 System Color capability.
The Beijing snapshot of current CSS includes CSS3 Colors and excludes
CSS3 UI.
http://www.w3.org/TR/css-beijing/#css
This creates the removal of a capability on which accessibility depends.
Another way to say it is that the accessibility dependency on color
inheritance from
the OS induces a dependency from CSS3 Colors on CSS3 UI if CSS3
Colors is to deprecate
System Colors.
The CSS3 Colors module should thus add CSS UI to the list of
documents on which it depends,
or remove the 'Deprecated' status from CSS System Colors.
CSS3 UI, if it is advancing behind CSS3 Colors, could in the latter
case deprecate System
Colors when it is suitably mature.
But don't leave a gap with the accessibility dependency un-satisfied.
Al
For more information:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jul/0069.html
=-=-=
From: Daniel Glazman <daniel.glazman@disruptive-innovations.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:10:14 +0200
To: Al Gilman <Alfred.S.Gilman@IEEE.org>
Cc: Bert Bos <bert@w3.org>, Hypertext CG <w3c-html-cg@w3.org>
Subj: Re: accessibility dependency on system colors and module advance
order in CSS3
Message-ID: <489AE626.9070903@disruptive-innovations.com>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2008JulSep/0058.html]
Al,
Here is the official answer from the CSS WG about your CSS System
Colors' issue. We discussed it yesterday evening during our weekly
conference call.
Deprecation of system colors in CSS3 Color is not obsolescence, and
accessibility can still rely on system colors for the time being. The
WG does not intend to obsolete system colors unless the replacement
('appearance') is ready at REC status.
I think the CSS WG follows here a reasonable path, and tagging System
Colors as 'deprecated' does not mean they become unsupported nor
does it indicate that browser vendors should not implement them. It only
says that at some point in the future, we might consider obsoleting them
in favor of a new mechanism.
Hoping this answer is ok for you and your Group,
</Daniel>
--
W3C CSS WG, Co-chair
=-=-=
From: Al Gilman <Alfred.S.Gilman@IEEE.org>
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:38:51 -0400
Cc: Daniel Glazman <daniel.glazman@disruptive-innovations.com>, Bert
Bos <bert@w3.org>
To: List WAI PF <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
Subj: Re: accessibility dependency on system colors and module advance
order in CSS3
Message-Id: <6AD37FFB-3E8B-4972-A679-B48A485BDEE2@IEEE.org>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JulSep/0310.html]
On the one hand, it is technically true that something that is
'deprecated' does
not mean it is no longer supported. Rather that it is marked for
eventual non-support at
some future point.
On the other hand, people (especially authors) don't read these
documents that
carefully. They are likely to read 'deprecated' as 'bad.'
Under the present circumstances -- where the "friendly amendment"
technology of CSS3-UI
that is supposed to supplant System Colors is lagging CSS3-Colors in
maturity -- the
CSS3-Colors module should probably be more explicit in describing the
conditions for migrating
off System Colors, and to what else.
Gregory was able to root this out by diligent searching; readers of
the CSS3-Colors
document should not be required to repeat this feat.
So perhaps PFWG should prepare a "proposed editorial change" to the
module spec to address
the above pedagogical issue. It would be editorial in the sense that
it does not affect
conformance to the spec. But important in that it affects
understanding and uptake in
the user base.
Al
=-=-=
From: Al Gilman <Alfred.S.Gilman@IEEE.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:02:31 -0400
Cc: w3c-wai-pf@w3.org, Tim Boland <frederick.boland@nist.gov>, Becky
Gibson <gibsonb@us.ibm.com>
To: Al Gilman <Alfred.S.Gilman@ieee.org>
Subj: CSS3 Colors agenda item [was: Re: agenda: PF telecon 20 August
2008 ...]
Message-Id: <3EE74EB7-7145-487A-AD72-E554A5B7A6C4@IEEE.org>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JulSep/0344.html]
> ** preliminary agenda for PFWG telecon 20 August 2008
...
> agenda+ CSS colors:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JulSep/0297.html
>
I'm looking for a volunteer to draft a change proposal for the CSS3
Colors
document.
Al
=-=-=
From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:20:04 +0100
To: w3c-wai-pf@w3.org, alfred.s.gilman@ieee.org
Subj: Re: CSS3 Colors agenda item
Message-Id: <20080819201704.M41442@hicom.net>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JulSep/0346.html]
aloha, al!
does the following post to XTech serve as a template stroke basis for
a CSS3 proposal:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jul/0069.html
if so, i can tweak and post to the PF list tonight; if not, please
let me know what would be appropriate...
gregory.
-------------------------------------------------------
lex parsimoniae:
* entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
-------------------------------------------------------
the law of succinctness:
* entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.
-------------------------------------------------------
=-=-=
From: Al Gilman <alfred.s.gilman@ieee.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:39:55 -0400
Cc: w3c-wai-pf@w3.org
To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>
Subj: Re: CSS3 Colors agenda item
Message-Id: <6F7DB03D-83A8-46AF-B930-CEFD57BFF3C4@ieee.org>
[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JulSep/0347.html]
On 19 Aug 2008, at 4:20 PM, Gregory J. Rosmaita wrote:
> does the following post to XTech serve as a template stroke basis for
> a CSS3 proposal:
>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Jul/0069.html
>
> if so, i can tweak and post to the PF list tonight; if not, please
> let me know what would be appropriate...
It has some links in it that you may want to reuse. Buried in
there is the story we want to tell, but not in anything like the
appropriate form.
My bad. I managed to link to the wrong message. What I meant
to cite is
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JulSep/0310.html
What I'm looking for is a "replace ... with ..."
edit proposal that would give the actual language that
should appear in the CSS3 Colors module spec at or near the beginning
of the System Colors section.
Presently, it just has the one word 'deprecated' mashed
into it gracelessly.
I would think maybe this should be replaced with a paragraph
with 'deprecated' in its title but a body that explains System
Colors should continue to be used until CSS3 UI is adequately
supported to be used in its place.
The key point to get across is that abandoning System Colors
comes after broad implementation of CSS3 UI.
Al
=-=-=
From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:05:05 +0100
To: Al Gilman <alfred.s.gilman@ieee.org>
Cc: w3c-wai-pf@w3.org
Subj: CSS3-Colors potential first draft (was Re: CSS3 Colors agenda item)
Message-Id: <20080819210256.M37922@hicom.net>
aloha, al et. al.!
would the following suffice, or is it too short and not sweet enough?
--- DRAFT REQUEST OF CSS3 COLOR FOR RESTORATION OF SYSTEM COLORS ---
RATIONALE:
1. the CSS3-UI spec has a dependency on the CSS3-Color module
(http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ui/#dependencies)
2. the CSS3-UI draft has been in candidate recommendation for slightly
over 4 years -- since CSS3-UI remains in limbo and there are no
documented implementations of the CSS3-UI module listed at:
http://www.w3.org/Style/css3-updates/css3-ui-implementations
it would greatly benefit accessibility if the deprecated portion of
the CSS3-Color module which has been pushed-off to the CSS3-UI module
to be reinserted into the CSS3-Color module, so that it can be more
readily and immediately be implemented, as the best way to respect a
user's preferences and settings is to reuse system color values and
preferences that the user has set for for his or her system
3. CSS3-Color, has cycled backwards from "Candidate Recommendation" on
14 May 2003, to the new Last Call draft issued 21 July 2008:
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color
in the 21 July 2008 CSS3-Color draft, section 4.5 "CSS System Colors":
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-color/#css-system
is marked as "deprecated" -- at the very end of the section is a note
explaining:
<q
cite="http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-color/#css-system">
The CSS2 System Color values have been deprecated in favor of the
CSS3 UI 'appearance' property for specifying the complete look of
user interface related elements
</q>
rather than providing a simple, straightforward means of applying
user-defined system preferences and colors as was the case with
CSS2 and CSS2.1
4. in the CSS Snapshot 2007 (a.k.a. "CSS Beijing") CSS3-Color is included
in the "Cascading Style Sheets Definition", but CSS3-UI is not.
CONCLUSION:
Therefore, due to all available developmental and implementation
information, the WAI/PFWG formally requests the restoration of section
4.5 "CSS System Colors" to the CSS3-Color module itself, as CSS3-Color
is earmarked by the Style activity as part of the "CSS definition",
whereas there is absolutely no mention of CSS3-UI in the CSS Snapshot
document.
--- END DRAFT REQUEST OF CSS3 COLOR FOR RESTORATION OF SYSTEM COLORS ---
gregory.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
-- Arthur Bloc
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregory J. Rosmaita - oedipus@hicom.net AND gregory@ubats.org
Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/
United Blind Advocates for Talking Signs (UBATS): http://ubats.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Received on Wednesday, 27 August 2008 21:27:47 UTC