- From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 16:08:01 -0500
- To: ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
- Cc: "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Link: https://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference
16 Feb 2016
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-irc
Attendees
Present
Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa,
Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cynthia_Shelly
Regrets
Chair
Joseph_Scheuhammer
Scribe
joanie
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]ACTION-1667 (All) Progress?
https://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-aapi-minutes.html#item01
2. [5]ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" --
latest from Cynthia/Alex/James Teh.
3. [6]ISSUE-1011 (Rich) Bring Rich up to speed.
4. [7]ACTION-1569/1585 (Joseph) Add to section on AAPI
differences highlighting the features of UIA.
5. [8]ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of
AAPI managed states and look for gaps.
6. [9]ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Joseph) UIA mapping for
aria-errormessage and role="error".
7. [10]Blank Titles in ARIA labels and name computation.
* [11]Summary of Action Items
* [12]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<clown> agenda: this
<scribe> scribe: joanie
ACTION-1667 (All) Progress?
[13]https://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-aapi-minutes.html#item01
[13] https://www.w3.org/2016/01/26-aapi-minutes.html#item01
<clown> action-1667?
<trackbot> action-1667 -- Cynthia Shelly to Update the mapping
spec for aria role region to reflect its landmark inheritance
as defined in the aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2016-02-26 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [14]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1667
[14] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1667
JS: This is not due for a while, but we need updates for role
region for UIA.
CS: I don't know the answer this moment, but it shouldn't take
me long.
<clown>
[15]http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia
2/2016-January/001993.html
[15]
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2016-January/001993.html
JS: There's also some discussion on the IA2 list (see above
URI).
... Rich had said IA2 needed a new LANDMARK role.
... Alex said he couldn't add roles himself.
... Alex also asked about the ATK discussion (if any).
RS: ATK already has that role.
<clown> ACTION: Rich to followup with Alex about IA2 discussion
re: adding a landmark role, similar to ATK [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
[16] http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2022 - Followup with alex about ia2
discussion re: adding a landmark role, similar to atk [on
Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2016-02-23].
RS: I'll take an action to follow up with Alex.
<clown> action-2022
<trackbot> action-2022 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Followup
with alex about ia2 discussion re: adding a landmark role,
similar to atk -- due 2016-02-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2022
[17] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2022
JS: Alex sent that message on the 27th of January.
RS: I remember seeing this. Has he done anything?
<clown>
[18]http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia
2/2016-January/001993.html
[18]
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/accessibility-ia2/2016-January/001993.html
JS: What Alex did is email the IA2 list. (See above URI.)
RS: Ok, that's on my todo list.
ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" -- latest from
Cynthia/Alex/James Teh.
<clown> action-1531?
<trackbot> action-1531 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate
ia2 mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1531
[19] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1531
JS: This started out as a David Bolter action.
... We started out in IA2 with text frames, then moved to
static.
... But then Cynthia brought up ways to do it in UIA.
<clown>
[20]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/00
32.html
[20] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Feb/0032.html
JS: One email is at above URI.
<clown> <img alt="foo" role="tesxt">
JS: It's going to be a text pattern.
CS: Right, but not a separate text pattern.
JS: In UIA, there's not going to be any accessible object for
the image element typed above.
CS: That's also what happens with span elements.
... That's the best way I can think of.
... Unless there was a property like a tabindex, we wouldn't
create a separate accessible.
RS: So what we want is for the text role to be read inline.
CS: The text pattern does have characters and character
navigation.
... Narrator supports that.
... There are also breaks and the ability to get range markers.
... So basically you're turning the img into a span
(functionally).
RS: What about caret tracking?
CS: I'm not sure. This is the only thing I can think of to do.
I have some doubts about this feature.
RS: What if we have Larry on the call?
CS: I'll talk to him first.
RS: I don't know that the Mac has caret tracking.
JS: I tested that.
... If you're going character by character, it treats the img
text "foo" as if it were a character.
RS: That seems like a reasonable thing.
CS: And also is aligned with how we do Chinese and Japanese
characters.
JS: In the accessibility inspector, there are three accessible
objects: the text before the image, the text of the image, and
the text after the image.
RS: So if you were reading text in the middle of a paragraph
and ran into an image, you wouldn't be saying image, right?
JS: VoiceOver says image when the role is not present.
RS: I guess what I'm saying is you don't want to pause in the
middle; you just want to read the whole thing without pausing.
(Group ponders what the user experience would be like if there
are periods in the alt text.)
JS: What about word-by-word examination of alt text?
CS: Narrator doesn't support that. I don't know about other
screen readers.
... I have a way to map this, and the user experience seems
bad.
... I'm very nervous about the ramifications of this feature,
and do not think it is worth the risk.
JS: I also have misgivings.
RS: We could consider limiting it to just images.
CS: That would make it better....
<clown> <span role="text" aria-label="3 of 5
stars">★★★☆☆︎</span></p>
JS: One of the examples in the spec involves 5 star glyphs.
<clown> <span role="text" aria-label="3 of 5
stars">★★★☆☆︎</span></p>
CS: And these glyphs exist in the wild.
JS: And unicode has them.
... And in Firefox you can arrow over each character
separately.
... In Safari, the stars have a single accessible of
StaticTextRole with a value of "3 of 5 stars".
<richardschwerdtfeger> <span role="text" aria-label="3 of 5
stars"><span role=“img”>★★★☆☆︎</span></span></p>
RS: You could also do the above.
CS: We create currently a group with "3 of 5 stars" as it's
name and no children.
RS: What you could do is force it to be an image....
CS: If I were authoring this, I'd use role="image" on this.
JS: That's what Stefan said as well.
RS: I say we go back to Steve and say you cannot put
role="text" on something unless it's an image.
CS: I think we should say it's only for images and then ask for
a WCAG technique.
RS: I agree with that.
CS: I'd do a span with role="image"
JS: Are we changing the ARIA spec?
<clown> [21]http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#text
[21] http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#text
RS: We could say "in HTML..." in the spec. Because SVG's needs
are different, and the spec applies to both.
... We could say that you can't use this on the text and tspan
elements.
<clown> <div role="text">
<clown> <p>I</p>
<clown> <p>like</p>
<clown> <p>turtles</p>
<clown> </div>
JD: I think we could do a change in the spec. If nothing else,
we need to get rid of the paragraph example.
BG: The one use case for the above is that some authoring
causes ATs to treat a single button as if it's broken up.
RS: What if you put an anchor in the middle of that?
JS: This is approaching the next agenda item.
<clown> "Use caution when using the text role on structural
elements. In particular, avoid using the text role on elements
with interactive descendants"
JS: (Reads from the spec, text quoted above.)
CS: Authors are going to mess this up.
RS: Can we give you, Joanie, and action item to limit this to
graphics and go back to Steve?
JS: I am.
CS: I am.
RS: I am.
JD: I am.
RS: Give me an action to go back to Steve.
<clown> ISSUE-1011
<trackbot> ISSUE-1011 -- For role="text", there needs to be
requirements on user agents for overrides, such as controls,
events, and other global aria properties, like there is for
role="presentation". -- open
<trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1011
[22] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1011
ISSUE-1011 (Rich) Bring Rich up to speed.
JS: A couple of meetings ago we concluded there was not enough
guidance in the spec about the dangers and need to
limit/override it.
<clown> ACTION: Joanie to write a proposal about how to modify
the definition of role text to limit its use. [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action02]
[23] http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2023 - Write a proposal about how to
modify the definition of role text to limit its use. [on
Joanmarie Diggs - due 2016-02-23].
<clown> ACTION: Rich to discuss with Steve F about limitations
wrt to role text [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action03]
[24] http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2024 - Discuss with steve f about
limitations wrt to role text [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due
2016-02-23].
<clown> action-2023
<trackbot> action-2023 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Write a proposal
about how to modify the definition of role text to limit its
use. -- due 2016-02-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2023
[25] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2023
JD: I'm happy to write a draft, but as you may recall, when
this new role was first raised, I brought up my concerns and
got the impression from Steve and James that I was "wrong."
... So I can write text, but I anticipate getting some pushback
from Steve and/or James.
RS: I'll talk to Steve first.
JS: Also, James Teh get into this and says he wants
IAccessibleText implemented for it, even though it has gotchas.
RS: Why would he want that if we limit it to images?
Group: True.
JS: In the meantime, the mapping is to ROLE_STATICTEXT.
ACTION-1569/1585 (Joseph) Add to section on AAPI differences
highlighting the features of UIA.
<clown> action-1569
<trackbot> action-1569 -- Jason Kiss to Create a section that
describes AAPI differences -- due 2015-03-03 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1569
[26] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1569
<clown> action-1585
<trackbot> action-1585 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add to the
section on differences among aapis highlighting the features of
uia. -- due 2016-01-15 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1585
[27] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1585
JS: I was hoping to have this (my actions to add Jason's and
Cynthia's text about AAPI differences) done.
... But I was spending time on combo boxes, so I need to put
this action off for another week.
ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of AAPI managed states
and look for gaps.
<clown> action-1593
<trackbot> action-1593 -- Cynthia Shelly to Compare
implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps. --
due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [28]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1593
[28] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1593
JS: Cynthia, this action is yours.
CS: I have not done this yet.
JS: New due date?
CS: Make it next week.
ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Joseph) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage and
role="error".
<clown> action-1691
<trackbot> action-1691 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose UIA
mapping for aria-errormessage. -- due 2015-12-31 -- CLOSED
<trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691
[29] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691
<clown> issue-1010
<trackbot> issue-1010 -- Add an error role -- open
<trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1010
[30] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1010
JS: I've completed this. I got the information from Cynthia and
made the changes.
<clown>
[31]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ar
iaErrorMessage
[31]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaErrorMessage
JS: It's at the above URI for UIA.
... (Reads mapping)
... And now that I'm looking at the table, there are a lot of
"TBD"s.
CS: Looks fine to me.
JS: Objections from anybody?
(None)
JS: This action can be closed then.
... I already closed it.
... I'm going to close the issue to add an error role. (Issue
1010)
... That makes me worry about the other ones.
<clown> action-1692
<trackbot> action-1692 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose ATK/AT-SPI
mapping for aria-errormessage -- due 2015-08-04 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [32]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1692
[32] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1692
JD: I know what I want to do for ATK, but we're expected to try
to keep IA2 and ATK in alignment where possible.
... And I've not had time to talk to Alex and James Teh about
this.
action-1373
<trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case
for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly
on some but not all elements. -- due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1373
[33] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1373
CS: One of these days.... :)
... Give me two weeks. I really want to do it.
<clown> action-1541?
<trackbot> action-1541 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Investigate and
propose mappings for aria-modal property for axapi. -- due
2016-02-08 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [34]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1541
[34] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1541
JS: This is the mapping for AX API. I've been following the
issue in WebKit's bugilla.
... And they have now fixed the issue. So I need to look at the
mapping and update the Core AAM.
Blank Titles in ARIA labels and name computation.
RS: We don't have any special cases for "".
JS: Example?
RS: In SVG, if you have a circle and it doesn't have any
attributes, you don't map it.
... But if you have circle with aria-label="", it winds up in
the accessibility tree.
... The SVG group has been discussing this.
... I would think we just follow the spec and expose it, not
taking the empty string into account.
CS: My one concern is that a lot of authoring tools put in
empty strings for accessibility attributes.
RS: But that should be checked by a conformance checker.
CS: The other thing we could do is say empty strings don't
count.
JS: We could do that.
... I think we had a test for this in 1.0.
CS: But this is slightly different.
JS: I see Alex saying that we're not going to take the time to
check the string.
CS: It would be nice if empty strings didn't wind up being
exposed.
JS: So what do you want Rich?
RS: If the author does an empty string, I think the associated
(shape) element should be in the tree.
Group: And the author is not especially bright.
<clown> +1
RESOLUTION: User Agents will not correct alternative text
solutions for elements when the text is blank or empty. It is
an author error.
<clown>
[35]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/default/ARIA/1.0/tests
/test-files/name-computation-input/536.html
[35]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pfwg/raw-file/default/ARIA/1.0/tests/test-files/name-computation-input/536.html
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Joanie to write a proposal about how to modify
the definition of role text to limit its use. [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Rich to discuss with Steve F about limitations
wrt to role text [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Rich to followup with Alex about IA2 discussion
re: adding a landmark role, similar to ATK [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
[36] http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action02
[37] http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action03
[38] http://www.w3.org/2016/02/16-aapi-minutes.html#action01
Summary of Resolutions
1. [39]User Agents will not correct alternative text solutions
for elements when the text is blank or empty. It is an
author error.
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 16 February 2016 21:08:53 UTC