- From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:54:53 -0400
- To: wai-xtech@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html
Plain text follows:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
01 Apr 2014
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-irc
Attendees
Present
Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa, Joanie_Diggs,
+1.416.848.aaaa, David_Bolter
Regrets
Cynthia Shelly
Chair
Joseph_Scheuhammer
Scribe
joanie, clown
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4](All) Update re: relevant aria-* attributes using
selectors for referencing other nodes:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Ma
r/0091.html
2. [5]ACTION-1369 (David): Investigate FF implementation
of aria-live removal events (see also ISSUE-481).
3. [6]ACTION-1408 (Joseph): Email Jason Kiss re: AAPI
that describes API differences.
4. [7]ISSUE-583 (Joseph): Update regarding status.
5. [8]ACTION-1409 (Joanie): File a bug against ATK re:
adding position, level, and other API.
6. [9]ISSUE-645 (All): Remove 'checkable' object
attribute from aria-pressed mappings.
* [10]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 01 April 2014
<clown> zakim GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
<clown> agenda: this
<joanie> ScribeNick: joanie
regrets Cynthia Shelly
(All) Update re: relevant aria-* attributes using selectors for
referencing other nodes:
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0091.html
[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0091.html
JS: Wanted to bring everyone up to date who wasn't on the call
yesterday
... There was a request from Dominic from Google, not
specifically to do with web components
... but how to provide access to shadow DOMs because you cannot
use an ID
... because the shadow DOM is sandboxed
... document.querySelector
... Function from DOM4 (not sure, might be DOM3)
... There is a discussion to let aria attributes with an ID ref
to work with active-descendant
... Discussion between javascript versus selection syntax run
in the browser
... just like CSS selectors
DB: Did Dominic provide examples?
JS: My recollection is no, but he's beginning to put that out
on the lists now.
... Today I saw something from an actual project he's working
on
<clown> [12]http://www.polymer-project.org/
[12] http://www.polymer-project.org/
JS: Here's the URL (above)
... (quotes from the email Dominic sent about polymer and these
sorts of examples)
... And Rich brought up an example in which the
relation/reference could go both ways
DB: I am happy that Dominic is putting energy toward solving
this
BG: I like the selector method better than the javascript
method
... because it is more clear
DB: My gut reaction is to agree with you Bryan
JS: And Rich wants to get this for 1.1, I think
DB: When is 1.1's target?
JS: April 2016
DB: April 1st! :)
JS: Realize we started the final ARIA 1.0 push in late October
2013
... That's almost half a year, just to push the document
through the whole process
... In order to release it by April 2016, it has to be done by
November 2015. That's not too bad.
BG: They were unclear about selectors referencing one or
multiple IDs.
... It might be important to distinguish
DB: It would be important for us all to do the same thing
JS: What's the status of shadow DOM in Firefox?
DB: I'm not sure
JS: Your example was great
... (describes example of video player where all the controls
are in the shadow DOM)
... So if you actually look at the document, you don't see any
buttons to push
BG: You don't see that a checkbox is checked
JS: The difference is that it looks totally different depending
on which browser you use
ACTION-1369 (David): Investigate FF implementation of aria-live
removal events (see also ISSUE-481).
<clown> action-1369?
<trackbot> action-1369 -- David Bolter to Investigate
implementation of aria-live region events in FF -- due
2014-02-25 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[13]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1369
[13] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1369
DB: I haven't done it yet.
... We also had agreed that it wasn't high priority.
(Group reads over issue above)
DB: Let's go with April 15th.
JS: (changes the ticket)
DB: I might have questions.
<clown> issue-481?
<trackbot> issue-481 -- aria-live removal events should or must
happen before object removal -- open
<trackbot> [14]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/481
[14] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/481
JS: Yeah, it's changing the SHOULD to a MUST.
... What possible reason would one have to not let an AT know
something is going away?
... All your action is: What does Firefox do now?
DB: I'm 99% sure we made the change to make this work.
... It actually was non-trivial.
<davidb> but code churn may have happened since
JS: I will do something when I get some answers from somebody.
ACTION-1408 (Joseph): Email Jason Kiss re: AAPI that describes API
differences.
JS: I was going to do it as soon as I did the agenda.
<clown> action-1408?
<trackbot> action-1408 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Send email to
jason kiss to ask him if he could write an aapi section that
describes api differences. -- due 2014-04-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[15]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1408
[15] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1408
JS: It's due today. I will change it to a week from today.
DB: I wonder if we should add a role description to ATK and
IA2.
ISSUE-583 (Joseph): Update regarding status.
<clown> issue-583?
<trackbot> issue-583 -- Elements that are descendants of an
element having aria-activedescendant should not all be
focusable -- open
<trackbot> [16]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/583
[16] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/583
JS: When we left this off a week ago, I was trying to find the
test case.
... We concluded that this is finished and we could just close
this issue.
... There's enough info in the UAIG
<clown>
[17]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsu
ite_id=1&testcase_id=784
[17]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=784
JS: But I cannot find the test case
... The URL in the issue (above) doesn't seem to exist
... I ended up seeing email to Rich and Michael asking, "Where
is this test case?"
... It's going to stay open until I find this test case.
... I think it is going to work though
DB: I'm trying to read the issue
JS: I'll try to summarize the issue
... Rich brings up that in an active-descendant case there
should be some restrictions on what should be focusable
... Because there can be all sorts of descendants which may be,
for example, descriptive
... But the UAIG says it has to have an ID and a role
<clown>
[18]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#keyboard-
focus_aria-activedescendant
[18]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#keyboard-focus_aria-activedescendant
JS: (to David) You and I asked Alex about this and he said,
"yes."
... If you go down to step 4 (in the above)
... 4a in particular
DB: So this is about the focusable state?
JS: Yes
DB: So it's a heuristic to determine which objects should have
state focusable
<clown> [19]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1222
[19] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1222
JS: (to David) Look at the above issue. And read the note.
... I want to make sure the test case actually works (i.e.
before I close it). Because Rich cites a test case.
i maybe gone
i hear nothing
<davidb> i don't hear you either
<davidb> but 3:30! :)
ha
calling back in
<clown> likewise, I don't hear joanie, but I do hear davidb.
sorry
<davidb> np
<scribe> ScribeNick: Joanie
ACTION-1409 (Joanie): File a bug against ATK re: adding position,
level, and other API.
<clown> action-1409?
<trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to File a bug against
atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and
other api be added. -- due 2014-04-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
[20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
JD: I did my action item. There is a bug filed in GNOME's
bugzilla
<clown> [21]https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453
[21] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453
JD: I am not anticipating much discussion, but there may be
some.
... I want to ping the Gtk+ accessibility developer because I
think this will solve some issues he pointed out to me.
JS: So do we close this issue out?
JD: No, I'd like to keep it open in case there is subsequent
discussion that requires our input.
<clown> action-1409?
<trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress
of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position,
level, and other api be added
([22]https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due
2014-04-15 -- OPEN
[22] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453)
<trackbot>
[23]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
[23] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
davidb: it's to get rid of 30 crazy things for implementors :)
<davidb> joanie: you don't like object attributes eh? :)
<davidb> we've crammed too much
<clown> davidb, you are correct, sir.
JD: The whole point of this new API, as was discussed last
week, is not only to simplify things for implementors
<davidb> up oh those ":"'s are gonna look like speakers
JD: But also because ATs don't give a _____ where it came from,
they just want the answer consistently.
ISSUE-645 (All): Remove 'checkable' object attribute from
aria-pressed mappings.
<clown> issue-645?
<trackbot> issue-645 -- remove 'checkable' object attribute
requirement from aria-pressed mapping requirements -- open
<trackbot> [24]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/645
[24] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/645
JS: I wish more people were here now. :)
... If you look at the issue, there is an aria-pressed
attribute
... And the current UAIG says that if it has true or false, the
checkable object attribute must be present
<clown>
[25]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_s
tate-property_table
[25]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_state-property_table
JS: I can confirm that aria-pressed only applies to toggle
buttons
... So I agree with Alex that checkable is redundant
... I am willing to take it out of the UAIG for all but Apple
(because it's not there for Apple)
BG: iOS used to say "checked" for toggle buttons
JS: There is no issue with UIA
... So the action is to remove the "checkable" from ATK and IA2
JD: I agree with this decision because it is not only
redundant, but it should eliminate extraneous state-changed
events that currently have to be filtered out by the AT.
JS: I want David's opinion, but he'll probably agree because
Alex has already removed this from Firefox (if I read this
correctly)
... Oh, it's not closed yet.
... There's been activity.
<clown> [26]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=825114
[26] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=825114
<clown>
[27]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=825114#c11
[27] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=825114#c11
(Discussion about the issue and differences in ATK and IA2
w.r.t toggle buttons)
<clown> [28]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=989958
[28] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=989958
JS: Marco is "stealing" the former bug (825114) to fix it in
the newer but (989958)
<bgaraventa1979> I like getting rid of checkable within toggle
buttons
JS: There's no due date on issues, so let's wait until this is
definitely closed.
BG: (agrees with getting rid of it)
JS: Joseph will get rid of it
<clown> ACTION: Joseph to modify IA2 and ATK/AT-SPI mappings
for aria-presssed to remove "expose object attribute
checkable:true". [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1418 - Modify ia2 and atk/at-spi
mappings for aria-presssed to remove "expose object attribute
checkable:true". [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-04-08].
<clown> action-1418?
<trackbot> action-1418 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Modify ia2 and
atk/at-spi mappings for aria-presssed to remove "expose object
attribute checkable:true". -- due 2014-04-08 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[30]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1418
[30] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1418
<clown>
[31]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_e
vents_state-change
[31]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation-1.1/#mapping_events_state-change
JS: The problem was that "checkable:true" was present for
toggle buttons
... But if the state changed on that toggle button, the
state-changed event was for the "pressed" state and not the
"checked" state.
... At the moment, aria-pressed is only used on toggle buttons
... But I can imagine it being applicable to other widgets.
... I think the worry was that if you put aria-pressed on
something that didn't have a clear role
... You needed a way to know it could be pressed/toggled.
... Visually... Toggle buttons, you cannot necessarily see that
they are toggle-able until they are toggled.
BG: JAWS and NVDA have role toggle button.
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: Actually I think that mixed state on a toggle button is
wrong.
... Toggle buttons are either on or off, not mixed.
JS: That's an issue with the spec, not the UAIG.
<bgaraventa1979> I agree, it is confusing
<joanie> ACTION: Joanie to investigate the validity of
aria-pressed=mixed [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1419 - Investigate the validity of
aria-pressed=mixed [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2014-04-08].
<joanie> JS: There's definitely aria-checked=mixed because I
wrote that section.
<joanie> JS: Reads the docs about the meaning of "mixed"
<joanie> JS: I do not see any examples of mixed-state toggle
buttons; I do see them for check boxes
<joanie> JS: But definitely the spec provides for the existence
of tri-state toggle buttons
<joanie> JS: So that's where you need to go if you decide to
complain
<joanie> JD: I will complain
<joanie> JS: Meeting over
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Joanie to investigate the validity of
aria-pressed=mixed [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Joseph to modify IA2 and ATK/AT-SPI mappings for
aria-presssed to remove "expose object attribute
checkable:true". [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2014/04/01-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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Received on Tuesday, 1 April 2014 20:55:34 UTC