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Re: Comment on ARIA 1.0: Problematic conformance requirement for aria-hidden

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 18:52:58 +0100
Message-ID: <CA+ri+V=Lka=GxB3oar18xRH0kuOPHvOe_oUSxY9O8P16Zx4AfQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Sailesh Panchang <sailesh.panchang@deque.com>
Cc: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com>, PFWG Public Comments <public-pfwg-comments@w3.org>, W3C WAI-XTECH <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Hi Sailesh,

you wrote:

"Situation 3: Visible (i.e. not hidden from view) but not exposed to AT
> So aria-hidden can be used only for situation 1?"
>

that appears to be the only use case not covered by native HTML5/CSS
features.

You wrote:

"2. ARIA is considered as a bridging technology to fill in for gaps or
> weaknesses of HTML 4 , JS etc.
> Now HTML 5 is being designed, inter alia,  to fix these weaknesses, right?
> So if one uses HTML 5 (after browsers and AT support it fully as
> intended by HTML5), there will be no need to use ARIA with HTML5?"
>

Not all ARIA features are provided in HTML5
this article i wrote back in 2010 covers the topic.
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2010/04/html5-and-the-myth-of-wai-aria-redundance/


Also this slide
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cbmudyX4qs5cbXIULKYrsGNUhgV29Iy1T7GqgpKT92I/present#slide=id.g33f45d8_0_54and
this
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cbmudyX4qs5cbXIULKYrsGNUhgV29Iy1T7GqgpKT92I/present#slide=id.g33f45d8_0_65
from a recent presentation illustrates the issue that even when native
features have been available in HTML for more than a decade, they are not
used in some cases  and ARIA is required to make the UI intelligible

<https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cbmudyX4qs5cbXIULKYrsGNUhgV29Iy1T7GqgpKT92I/present#slide=id.gb253674_0_10>
regards
Stevef

On 30 April 2012 17:31, Sailesh Panchang <sailesh.panchang@deque.com> wrote:

> On 4/27/12, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
> > aria-hidden confuses me.
> > I think that html5 hidden and CSS display:none should be functionally and
> > semantically the same and that both should imply aria-hidden=true
> >
> Well you are not alone.
> This is how I am trying to conceptualize requirements and figure where
> aria-hidden fits in.
> Situation 1: Hidden from view and not exposed to AT  -
> display: none works, and can be toggled  on/off via JS.
> It is widely supported by browsers and AT
> Situation 2: Hidden from view, but exposed to AT -
> Placing text off-screen works fine.  Also akin to the summary
> attribute for a data-table
>
> Situation 3: Visible (i.e. not hidden from view) but not exposed to AT
> So aria-hidden can be used only for situation 1?
>
> Two other questions I have:
> 1. Is it because today aria-hidden is not uniformly / adequately
> supported by browsers and AT that the ARIA 1.0 Supported States and
> Properties section suggests one should declare:
> [aria-hidden="true"] { visibility: hidden; }
>  Ironically, if the fall back mechanism requires CSS, then what's
> wrong if this attribute were simply not there?
> This view is reinforced with
> Leif H Silli's opinion later down the thread:
> >I personally know, with myself, that I am not going to use
> >aria-hidden="true" on all temporarily hidden elements.
> Turning aria-hidden on/off also requires JS. So what is the practical
> benefit of this attribute really?
> Today it is difficult to find Web content that does not use JS and CSS.
>
> 2. ARIA is considered as a bridging technology to fill in for gaps or
> weaknesses of HTML 4 , JS etc.
> Now HTML 5 is being designed, inter alia,  to fix these weaknesses, right?
> So if one uses HTML 5 (after browsers and AT support it fully as
> intended by HTML5), there will be no need to use ARIA with HTML5?
> Sailesh Panchang
> www.deque.com
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Thursday, 3 May 2012 17:53:51 GMT

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