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Re: [css3-ui] scoping 'nav-index' (or tabindex) for large document use cases

From: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:51:40 -0800
Message-ID: <4ED41E8C.7060205@oracle.com>
To: Chris Blouch <cblouch@aol.com>
CC: wai-xtech@w3.org
Wouldn't you also need a tabprevious?

On 11/28/2011 2:22 PM, Chris Blouch wrote:
> Not to generate a rabbit trail, but if we're talking about new 
> tabindex behaviors would it be possible/advisable to have a tabnext 
> attribute with an ID? Would sure simplify a lot of things for managing 
> focus on dynamic sites. So I put tabnext="xyz" on node and as long as 
> some other container has that ID my next tab stop lands there, 
> irregardless of its current tabindex value. Maybe this was already 
> discussed and tossed but I like the option of being able to have one 
> element decide where to push focus next rather than hoping the 
> tabindex on the destination I want happens to play correctly with all 
> the other tabindex values. The whole management of integer assignment 
> of tabindexes to nodes just feels klunky and doesn't hold up well when 
> pages, content and widgets are dynamically modifying their node 
> hierarchies.
>
> CB
>
> On 11/28/11 11:32 AM, James Nurthen wrote:
>> Some new CSS3 layout regions cause content to be reordered. In order 
>> to support keyboard navigation of this content it may be necessary to 
>> define nav-index in CSS as well.
>> Regards,
>> James
>>
>> On 11/26/2011 4:09 PM, Sailesh Panchang wrote:
>>> It is not clear why the same functionality is being proposed via
>>> tabindex and CSS nav-index.
>>> I even wonder if CSS should do this. After all, tab order relates to
>>> document structure, meaningful reading / nav order and is concerned
>>> with semantics. Hence it should be addressed by HTML and its
>>> attributes not by CSS which, broadly speaking, addresses doc
>>> presentation / appearance aspects.
>>> And it will be very  confusing for developers as well as
>>> QA/accessibility evaluation tools if similar features can be
>>> implemented by tabindex in HTML and  nav-index in CSS.
>>> Sailesh Panchang
>>> www.deque.com
>>>
>>> On 11/20/11, Ojan Vafai<ojan@chromium.org>  wrote:
>>>> FWIW, there's a proposal to extend tabindex with tabindexscope to 
>>>> address
>>>> the same problem:
>>>> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2011-November/033775.html. 
>>>>
>>>> I agree that if we're going to add nav-index, we should also 
>>>> address the
>>>> scoping problem.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 3:22 PM, L. David Baron<dbaron@dbaron.org>  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> One of the issues that came up in the joint meeting between CSS and
>>>>> WAI Protocols&  Formats at TPAC (on October 31) was the 'nav-index'
>>>>> property in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-ui/#nav-index .  (This is
>>>>> the second of two messages (on different topics) to follow up on that
>>>>> discussion.)
>>>>>
>>>>> There was a brief discussion that both 'nav-index' and tabindex are
>>>>> difficult for authors to use on large pages.  This was because of
>>>>> the impression that one of the use cases is likely to be doing a
>>>>> small amount of reordering of the tabbing order.  In particular, I
>>>>> think the following two use cases may have been brought up:
>>>>>
>>>>>   (1) The author wants to say that the tabbing order (sequential
>>>>>   navigation order) should be assigned a certain way for large
>>>>>   sections of the page, each of which contain many navigable items.
>>>>>   For example, consider two div elements, each with a large number
>>>>>   of links in it, where the author wants all of the elements in the
>>>>>   second div to appear in the tabbing order before all of the
>>>>>   elements in the first div.  This currently requires assigning
>>>>>   tabindex, at a minimum, to all the tab-navigable elements in at
>>>>>   least one of the divs, if not all the tab-navigable elements in
>>>>>   the whole document.  It would be easier if there were a way to do
>>>>>   this by applying styles only to the divs (and perhaps their
>>>>>   container; see item (2)).
>>>>>
>>>>>   (2) The author wants to say that the tabbing order (sequential
>>>>>   navigation order) should be assigned a certain way for a group of
>>>>>   elements within a specific container without having to specify the
>>>>>   order for everything else around them.  Right now, saying that two
>>>>>   links inside a div should be reached in the order opposite the
>>>>>   default one, but should appear in-sequence relative to the content
>>>>>   outside of the div, requires not only specifying 'nav-index' or
>>>>>   tabindex on the two links, but also on all the other links in the
>>>>>   document.
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems useful to be able to address these use cases by assigning
>>>>> properties or attributes to only a few elements rather than having
>>>>> to do so globally.
>>>>>
>>>>> (Note the desire for the tabbing order to be the way it is may be
>>>>> the result of positions assigned in the style sheet, which is why
>>>>> the tabbing order may belong in the style sheet as well.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't recall concrete proposals for how to address these issues,
>>>>> but they seem likely to be worth addressing in css3-ui.
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> 𝄞   L. David Baron                         http://dbaron.org/   𝄂
>>>>> 𝄢   Mozilla                           http://www.mozilla.org/   𝄂
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Monday, 28 November 2011 23:52:17 GMT

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