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Re: summary="" in HTML5 ISSUE-32

From: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:01:06 -0500
Cc: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Robert J Burns <rob@robburns.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>, James Graham <jgraham@opera.com>, Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, Steve Axthelm <steveax@pobox.com>, Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Simon Pieters <simonp@opera.com>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-liaison@w3.org, janina@rednote.net, Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>, Matt Morgan-May <mattmay@adobe.com>, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
Message-Id: <9B99233F-1987-4DD4-9FA3-02FB9AFD0333@comcast.net>
To: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>
Where it would be displayed would be a ua call.  If I want a summary  
of something though, I would expect that it would appear before what  
is being summarized in this type of instance.

On Feb 25, 2009, at 3:19 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:10 PM, David Poehlman  
<poehlman1@comcast.net> wrote:
> could @summary not be taught to display to all?

Sure, but it currently isn't. Where and how are you proposing it is  
displayed?

One thing to note is that I don't have particular strong opinions on
this whole subject at all as I don't feel that I'm educated enough on
the needs of various AT users. All I can do is to listen to the
proposals people make and the problems other people point out in those
proposals.

/ Jonas

> On Feb 25, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:03 PM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net 
> >
> wrote:
>>
>> what is the difference between your paragraph and what we already  
>> have?
>>  how
>> would it improve on @summary?
>
> The advantage is that the <p> is displayed to all users. Not just
> users of AT clients.
>
> / Jonas
>
>> On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:59 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net 
>> >
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think it is possible to associate a <p> programatically</p  
>>> to a
>>> table.  It might be possible to designate someting inside the  
>>> table to
>>> surve
>>> the same purpurpose as @summary though.
>>
>> First off, i notice that you didn't answer my question *why* this is
>> needed.
>>
>> Second, it seems like you didn't understand my suggestions for how to
>> associate a <p> with the <table>.
>>
>> What I'm suggesting is that we could add an attribute on <table> to
>> point to the element containing the summary. Such as:
>>
>> <p id="thisIsTheSummary">
>>  Summary goes here
>> </p>
>> <table summary-in="thisIsTheSummary">
>>  ...
>> </table>
>>
>> This way the AT client can find the summary associated with a  
>> particular
>> table.
>>
>>> I also want to point out that I consider it a grose miss use of
>>> @summary=""
>>> required to pass a test as well, miss use.
>>
>> I don't understand what you're saying here.
>>
>>> I appreciate the efforts on this but also hear and echo the  
>>> conerns of
>>> others that we *really* need to have a good replacement or modify
>>> @summary
>>> to do what we need for it to do.
>>
>> I don't think anyone disagrees with this.
>>
>> / Jonas
>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:50 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net 
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <p> this is a layout table.
>>>> <p> there is no summary for this table...
>>>> Now, where was that little d?
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, I don't understand the question? Could you elaborate?
>>>
>>>> Not picking on you but we need programatic association and clear  
>>>> markup
>>>> which @summary provides today.
>>>
>>> This would indeed not be the case with the proposal to have a  
>>> separate
>>> paragraph (marked up with a <p>) before or after the table.
>>>
>>> Could you elaborate on why this is needed?
>>>
>>> If we added an attribute like summaryfor="idOfTable" to the <p>,  
>>> would
>>> that address all the problems you have with this proposed  
>>> solution? Or
>>> adding a summaryIn="idOfPara" on the <table>. I'm not suggesting  
>>> this
>>> as a solution, merely trying to understand your complaints with the
>>> <p> solution.
>>>
>>> Also, this problem (if it indeed is a problem) does not seem to  
>>> exist
>>> with any of the other solutions proposed. Maciej listed many more  
>>> than
>>> I did.
>>>
>>> / Jonas
>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:23 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net 
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What actually mystifies me and I've been following every nuounce  
>>>>> of the
>>>>> conversation over a long span on several lists is that there has  
>>>>> not
>>>>> been
>>>>> shown to be anything satisfactorily demonstrated to replace what  
>>>>> can be
>>>>> and
>>>>> has been used as such an accessibility enhancing attribute as  
>>>>> @summary.
>>>>
>>>> Two suggestions I've seen so far are:
>>>>
>>>> * Use a <p> above the table describing the contents of the table.
>>>> * Change the definition of <caption> to not just be the title of  
>>>> the
>>>> table to also be allowed to contain a summary.
>>>>
>>>> Both these have the advantage if adding accessibility to all users
>>>> rather than just ones that use AT clients.
>>>>
>>>> Another suggestion I've thought about is using the table@title
>>>> attribute. Title attributes are already often used to add  
>>>> descriptive
>>>> information out-of-flow. And title attributes are generally  
>>>> available
>>>> in visual UAs in the form of tooltips.
>>>>
>>>> / Jonas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jonnie Appleseed
>>>> with his
>>>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>>>> reducing technology's disabilities
>>>> one byte at a time
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jonnie Appleseed
>>> with his
>>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>>> reducing technology's disabilities
>>> one byte at a time
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jonnie Appleseed
>> with his
>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
>> reducing technology's disabilities
>> one byte at a time
>>
>>
>
> --
> Jonnie Appleseed
> with his
> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
> reducing technology's disabilities
> one byte at a time
>
>



-- 
Jonnie Appleseed
with his
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
reducing technology's disabilities
one byte at a time
Received on Wednesday, 25 February 2009 21:01:47 GMT

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