Re: Tree sample code

Aaron,

How you know if a browser is ARIA enabled?

Do you mean browsers that do not support scripting link lynx?

It seems that a tree widget should still behave from a keyboard perspective like a tree, and not just like a set of links, even if the browser does not support the aria markup.

If it does not use ARIA then inline images could be used to provide state information no whether the branch is open or not.

Jon


---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 19:18:06 +0200
>From: Aaron M Leventhal <aleventh@us.ibm.com>  
>Subject: Re: Tree sample code  
>To: Jon Gunderson <jongund@illinois.edu>
>Cc: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@exchange.microsoft.com>, George Young <gcyoung@microsoft.com>, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>, W3C WAI-XTECH <wai-xtech@w3.org>
>
>   Jon,
>
>   Take a look at the one I sent out that suggests to
>   implement arrow keys only in ARIA-enabled browsers.
>   For other browsers it has the fallback of looking
>   like nested lists of links that can be
>   tabbed-through.
>
>   - Aaron
>
>   From:    Jon Gunderson <jongund@illinois.edu>        
>   To:      James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>              
>   Cc:      Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS,      
>            Cynthia Shelly                              
>            <cyns@exchange.microsoft.com>, George Young 
>            <gcyoung@microsoft.com>, W3C WAI-XTECH      
>            <wai-xtech@w3.org>                          
>   Date:    09/08/2008 06:54 PM                         
>   Subject: Re: Tree sample code                        
>
>     ------------------------------------------------
>
>   This is not really a tree widget in the sense of
>   ARIA since it does not control keyboard focus
>   actively.  You essentially tab through all the
>   "links" that are leaves and it does not support use
>   the ARROW keys to navigate the tree structure.
>
>   Jon
>
>   ---- Original message ----
>   >Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 17:14:08 -0700
>   >From: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>  
>   >Subject: Re: Tree sample code  
>   >To: Jon Gunderson <jongund@illinois.edu>
>   >Cc: Aaron M Leventhal <aleventh@us.ibm.com>,
>   Cynthia Shelly <cyns@exchange.microsoft.com>, George
>   Young <gcyoung@microsoft.com>, W3C WAI-XTECH
>   <wai-xtech@w3.org>
>   >
>   >
>   >I think George and Cynthia originally sent it out
>   as an attachment, so  
>   >I've uploaded their example here.
>   >
>   >http://cookiecrook.com/test/aria/tree/microsoft_original/ariatree.htm

>   >
>   >
>   >On Sep 7, 2008, at 6:58 AM, Jon Gunderson wrote:
>   >
>   >> Is there a link to the Microsoft implementation
>   of tree?
>   >>
>   >> Jon
>   >>
>   >>
>   >> ---- Original message ----
>   >>> Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 12:42:26 +0200
>   >>> From: Aaron M Leventhal <aleventh@us.ibm.com>
>   >>> Subject: RE: Tree sample code
>   >>> To: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@exchange.microsoft.com>
>   >>> Cc: George Young <gcyoung@microsoft.com>,
>   "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org
>   >>> >, wai-xtech-request@w3.org
>   >>>
>   >>>  The graceful degredation might work if you put
>   >>>  role="presentation" in the right places. Let's
>   work
>   >>>  together on that.
>   >>>
>   >>>  In general need to "circle the wagons" on ARIA
>   >>>  implementations so that the same things work in
>   both
>   >>>  IE and Firefox.
>   >>>  Can we all agree to try out our ideas in each
>   >>>  other's implementations or at least make sure
>   the
>   >>>  ARIA user agent implementor's guide reflects
>   the
>   >>>  algorithm you will use when exposing the
>   positional
>   >>>  info to the AT.
>   >>>
>   >>>  If you can read between the lines, I'm honestly
>   just
>   >>>  worried that we're all doing different things
>   >>>  without checking with each other and trying it
>   out
>   >>>  with the currently shipping implementations
>   that
>   >>>  already work, or even checking it against the
>   ARIA
>   >>>  spec or implementors guide. If everyone
>   structures
>   >>>  their test widgets slightly differently, any 2
>   >>>  implementations will work differently. Authors
>   will
>   >>>  end up with a mess. IOW please just take this
>   as me
>   >>>  hoping we can go back and forth until we agree
>   to do
>   >>>  trees the same way, not to mention menubars,
>   combo
>   >>>  boxes and other complex composite widgets with
>   >>>  potential structural choices.
>   >>>
>   >>>  - Aaron
>   >>>
>   >>>  From:    Cynthia Shelly
>   >>>           <cyns@exchange.microsoft.com>
>   >>>  To:      Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS
>   >>>  Cc:      George Young <gcyoung@microsoft.com>,
>   >>>           "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
>   >>>  Date:    09/06/2008 12:52 AM
>   >>>  Subject: RE: Tree sample code
>   >>>
>   >>>  
>    ------------------------------------------------
>   >>>
>   >>>  #1 is probably just do to our inexperience.  If
>   >>>  it’s not needed, that’s great.
>   >>>
>   >>>  So, #2 is the point of this code sample.  Use
>   the
>   >>>  native semantics as far as they go, and then
>   >>>  progressively enhance with ARIA.  I feel pretty
>   >>>  strongly that this type of graceful degradation
>   >>>  pattern should be supported if we want
>   accessibility
>   >>>  in the broadest range of user agents.
>   >>>
>   >>>  As a side note, I am getting position and
>   nesting
>   >>>  info with IE 8 Beta 2 and JAWS 9.0.2169 with
>   the
>   >>>  virtual cursor turned off, and I’m also
>   seeing it
>   >>>  in MSAA description field in Inspect32.  The
>   child
>   >>>  count is incorrect, and I haven’t yet figured
>   out
>   >>>  why.
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>>  From: Aaron M Leventhal
>   [mailto:aleventh@us.ibm.com]
>   >>>  Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 5:56 AM
>   >>>  To: Cynthia Shelly
>   >>>  Cc: George Young; wai-xtech@w3.org
>   >>>  Subject: Re: Tree sample code
>   >>>
>   >>>  Here are my comments on Microsoft's tree
>   sample:
>   >>>  1. It uses aria-level, aria-setsize and
>   >>>  aria-posinset when it doesn't need to.
>   >>>  The idea is that authors only need to do that
>   if the
>   >>>  tree is not DOM complete -- iow it's loaded
>   >>>  dynamically. When the entire tree structure is
>   there
>   >>>  the user agent is supposed to calculate that
>   info
>   >>>  from the structure.
>   >>>  2. It uses <li><a/></li> constructs.
>   >>>  This seems to be to allow for graceful
>   degredation
>   >>>  for non-ARIA clients. However, it means that
>   the
>   >>>  tree has list, list item and tree item objects
>   mixed
>   >>>  together, and no longer looks like a tree
>   widget to
>   >>>  current generation ATs. Neither current ATs nor
>   >>>  Firefox 3 will process the structure and
>   >>>  automatically provide info like the level,
>   posinset
>   >>>  and setsize.
>   >>>  In general, the current implementors guide
>   algorithm
>   >>>  will not work with this tree. So either the
>   tree
>   >>>  needs to change, or the impl guide algorithm or
>   >>>  both.
>   >>>  What do you suggest?
>   >>>  - Aaron
>   >>>
>   >>>  From:    Cynthia Shelly
>   >>>           <cyns@exchange.microsoft.com>
>   >>>  To:      "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
>   >>>  Cc:      George Young <gcyoung@microsoft.com>
>   >>>  Date:    07/07/2008 11:21 PM
>   >>>  Subject: Tree sample code
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>>  
>    ------------------------------------------------
>   >>>
>   >>>  As promised, here is a zip of the tree sample I
>   >>>  demo’d at the face to face.
>   >>>
>   >>>  Tree.htm uses only nested unordered lists of
>   links
>   >>>  (with onclick handlers) to achieve tree
>   behavior.
>   >>>   JAWS in virtual cursor mode with medium
>   verbosity
>   >>>  does a good job of reading the list levels.
>   >>>   Tab+enter opens and closes the tree levels.
>   >>>
>   >>>  Ariatree.htm is the same tree, with aria markup
>   >>>  added to the links.  With virtual cursor turned
>   off,
>   >>>  list level information is exposed to MSAA.
>    This was
>   >>>  tested with IE8 beta 1 and JAWS 9.  There are a
>   few
>   >>>  bugs in what is exposed to MSAA by IE in this
>   early
>   >>>  build, which will be fixed.
>   >>>
>   >>>  I’ve copied George Young, who wrote the
>   original
>   >>>  tree, to which I added ARIA for the CSUN demo.
>   >>>   George is the best person to work with on
>   combining
>   >>>  this tree with any other samples that have more
>   >>>  extensive keyboard handling
>   features.[attachment
>   >>>  "trees.zip" deleted by Aaron M
>   >>>  Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM]
>   >
>   >
>   Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>   Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>   Disability Resources and Educational Services
>
>   Rehabilitation Education Center
>   Room 86
>   1207 S. Oak Street
>   Champaign, Illinois 61821
>
>   Voice: (217) 244-5870
>
>   WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/

>   WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/

Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
Disability Resources and Educational Services

Rehabilitation Education Center
Room 86
1207 S. Oak Street
Champaign, Illinois 61821

Voice: (217) 244-5870

WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/

Received on Monday, 8 September 2008 17:56:46 UTC