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RE: closing a Tab?

From: Aaron M Leventhal <aleventh@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:37:02 -0500
To: "Schnabel, Stefan" <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>
Cc: "Becky Gibson" <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com>, "David Bolter" <david.bolter@utoronto.ca>, "Jon Gunderson" <jongund@uiuc.edu>, Thomas.Wlodkowski@corp.aol.com, wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-xtech-request@w3.org
Message-ID: <OFBCFA2E2B.1439C3D6-ON85257402.005B4F54-85257402.005B6A74@us.ibm.com>
Right, but you can find out if you can do something by looking in the 
context menu. I just don't see what makes closeable more special than 
other things that we'll realize later after 1.0 ships.

And since it's not supported by ATs or understood by users it seems like 
an uphill battle compared to the context menu or tabbing solution.

- Aaron




"Schnabel, Stefan" <stefan.schnabel@sap.com> 
Sent by: wai-xtech-request@w3.org
03/04/2008 02:37 AM

To
"Jon Gunderson" <jongund@uiuc.edu>, Aaron M Leventhal/Cambridge/IBM@IBMUS, 
"David Bolter" <david.bolter@utoronto.ca>
cc
"Becky Gibson" <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com>, 
<Thomas.Wlodkowski@corp.aol.com>, <wai-xtech@w3.org>, 
<wai-xtech-request@w3.org>
Subject
RE: closing a Tab?







Sortable IS a criterion, even for the curmudgeon .. think of table columns 
:)

Context menu is always a good idea. But I think this discussion is not so 
much about how-to-trigger, it is more about the initial info that a Tab 
CAN be closed if user wants so and how to announce that on focus and IF 
that should be announced. 

- Stefan


-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Gunderson [mailto:jongund@uiuc.edu] 
Sent: Dienstag, 4. März 2008 00:10
To: Aaron M Leventhal; David Bolter
Cc: Becky Gibson; Schnabel, Stefan; Thomas.Wlodkowski@corp.aol.com; 
wai-xtech@w3.org; wai-xtech-request@w3.org
Subject: Re: closing a Tab?

I agree with Aaron if we can do it with a context menu it will be much 
more consistent to the user.

Jon


---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:46:36 -0500
>From: Aaron M Leventhal <aleventh@us.ibm.com> 
>Subject: Re: closing a Tab? 
>To: David Bolter <david.bolter@utoronto.ca>
>Cc: Becky Gibson <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com>, Jon Gunderson 
<jongund@uiuc.edu>, "Schnabel, Stefan" <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>, 
Thomas.Wlodkowski@corp.aol.com, wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-xtech-request@w3.org
>
>   Sorry to be a curmudgeon, but closeable seems a bit
>   odd to me. How about saveable, reloadable and
>   sortable, etc.?
>
>   Aren't these all just context menu items? Why is one
>   more special than the rest? And closeable is not
>   supported by ATs or known by users.
>
>   - Aaron
>
>David Bolter                    To "Schnabel, Stefan" 
><david.bolter@utoronto.ca>         <stefan.schnabel@sap.com> 
>Sent by:                        cc Jon Gunderson 
>wai-xtech-request@w3.org           <jongund@uiuc.edu>, 
>                                   Thomas.Wlodkowski@corp.aol.com, 
>03/03/2008 11:31 AM                Becky Gibson 
>                                   <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com>, 
>                                   wai-xtech@w3.org 
>                           Subject Re: closing a Tab? 
> 
>
>   An aria-closable seems reasonable. I can't remember
>   past discussions
>   about this and why it might not have been
>   included... ?
>
>   D
>   Schnabel, Stefan wrote:
>   > Agree. So do we need a aria-closable property? Or
>   can we use any of the existing aria properties for
>   that?
>   >
>   > Stefan
>   >
>   > -----Original Message-----
>   > From: Jon Gunderson [mailto:jongund@uiuc.edu]
>   > Sent: Montag, 3. März 2008 15:33
>   > To: Schnabel, Stefan; Wlodkowski, Thomas; Becky
>   Gibson; wai-xtech@w3.org
>   > Subject: RE: closing a Tab?
>   >
>   > We need to have some awareness of the closability
>   to a tab, like a popup context menu.  I am not sure
>   a tooltip is the best way to do this.
>   >
>   > Jon
>   >
>   >
>   > ---- Original message ----
>   > 
>   >> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 09:58:31 +0100
>   >> From: "Schnabel, Stefan"
>   <stefan.schnabel@sap.com> 
>   >> Subject: RE: closing a Tab? 
>   >> To: "Wlodkowski, Thomas"
>   <Thomas.Wlodkowski@corp.aol.com>, "Jon Gunderson"
>   <jongund@uiuc.edu>, "Becky Gibson"
>   <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com>, <wai-xtech@w3.org>
>   >>
>   >> Tom,
>   >>
>   >> That's why we're doing Best Practices, don't we?
>   >>
>   >> Think of FireFox. Having 10 Tabs open and arrow
>   keying with additional
>   >> focusing of the closing cross icon will result in
>   a keyhitcount of 18 to
>   >> navigate the tabs instead of 9.
>   >>
>   >> And don't tell me Firefox isn't a good example :)
>   (just kidding)
>   >>
>   >> So currently we solve the issue for Tabs in our
>   Web Dynpro frameworks
>   >> with memorizing special keys in the tab tooltip
>   in cases where it does
>   >> make sense.
>   >>
>   >> - Stefan
>   >>
>   >> -----Original Message-----
>   >> From: Wlodkowski, Thomas
>   [mailto:Thomas.Wlodkowski@corp.aol.com]
>   >> Sent: Freitag, 29. Februar 2008 18:25
>   >> To: Schnabel, Stefan; Jon Gunderson; Becky
>   Gibson; wai-xtech@w3.org
>   >> Subject: RE: closing a Tab?
>   >>
>   >> I also think the icon attached to the tab or in
>   the tab order may also
>   >> be helpful. We need to consider cognitive load
>   when talking about
>   >> keyboard shortcuts. Too many web and software
>   apps to track/memorize.
>   >>
>   >>
>   >>
>   >> -----Original Message-----
>   >> From: wai-xtech-request@w3.org
>   [mailto:wai-xtech-request@w3.org] On
>   >> Behalf Of Schnabel, Stefan
>   >> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 11:54 AM
>   >> To: Jon Gunderson; Becky Gibson; wai-xtech@w3.org
>   >> Subject: RE: closing a Tab?
>   >>
>   >>
>   >> Jon,
>   >>
>   >> better to have a standardized hotkey for closing
>   tab. As a concept we
>   >> tend to keep tab chains short.
>   >>
>   >> Regards
>   >> Stefan
>   >>
>   >>
>   >> -----Original Message-----
>   >> From: wai-xtech-request@w3.org
>   [mailto:wai-xtech-request@w3.org] On
>   >> Behalf Of Jon Gunderson
>   >> Sent: Freitag, 29. Februar 2008 17:32
>   >> To: Becky Gibson; wai-xtech@w3.org
>   >> Subject: Re: closing a Tab?
>   >>
>   >>
>   >> Why can't the close icon be in tab order and the
>   icon can also be part
>   >> of the label for the tab.
>   >>
>   >> Jon
>   >>
>   >>
>   >> ---- Original message ----
>   >> 
>   >>> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:35:21 -0500
>   >>> From: "Becky Gibson"
>   <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com> 
>   >>> Subject: Re: closing a Tab? 
>   >>> To: wai-xtech@w3.org
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>> I implemented a context menu for closable tabs
>   in the dojo tab
>   >>> 
>   >> container.
>   >> 
>   >>> See the second tab panel example on [1]. The
>   tabs with title "first"
>   >>> 
>   >> and
>   >> 
>   >>> "third" are closable. Pressing shift-F10 with
>   focus on these tabs will
>   >>> bring up a context menu with "close".  If a tab
>   is closable, pressing
>   >>> 
>   >> the
>   >> 
>   >>> delete key with focus on the title will delete
>   the tab.  I thought this
>   >>> 
>   >> is
>   >> 
>   >>> what the style guide group had decided upon?
>    Although it would be nice
>   >>> 
>   >> if
>   >> 
>   >>> there was a way to indicate to the screen reader
>   user that a tab (or
>   >>> 
>   >> any
>   >> 
>   >>> other item) was deletable without having the use
>   the shift-F10
>   >>> 
>   >> discovery
>   >> 
>   >>> mechanism.
>   >>>
>   >>> I based my implementation decision on the  DHTML
>   Style Guide June 29,
>   >>> 
>   >> 2007
>   >> 
>   >>> meeting minutes [2]:
>   >>> TW: options other than DELETE - CTRL+F4 a
>   possibility, have
>   >>> to get comments on that - what we are saying is
>   context menu and
>   >>> 
>   >> keyboard
>   >> 
>   >>> shortcut combo fine - great if had property so
>   didn't have to use
>   >>> 
>   >> context
>   >> 
>   >>> menu, but maybe that's phase 2
>   >>> So perhaps we made a decision but just didn't
>   record it in the style
>   >>> guide?
>   >>> [1]
>   >>>
>   
http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/layout/t
>   >>> 
>   >> est_TabContainer.html
>   >> 
>   >>> [2]
>   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2007Jun/0130.html
>   >>>
>   >>> Becky Gibson
>   >>> Web Accessibility Architect
>   >>> 
> 
>   >>> IBM Emerging Internet Technologies
>   >>> 5 Technology Park Drive
>   >>> Westford, MA 01886
>   >>> Voice: 978 399-6101; t/l 333-6101
>   >>> Email: gibsonb@us.ibm.com
>   >>> blog: WebA11y
>   >>>
>   >>>
>   >>> wai-xtech-request@w3.org wrote on 02/28/2008
>   03:06:06 PM:
>   >>>
>   >>> 
>   >>>> In the Best Practices we have a dangling
>   question:
>   >>>>
>   >>>> <quote
>   >>>>
>   cite="http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#TabPanel">
>   >>>>
>   >>>> Unresolved at time of port from DHTML wiki: How
>   to indicate that a
>   >>>> tab panel can be deleted? Visually a close icon
>   can be provided in
>   >>>> the upper right hand corner of the tab which
>   the user can click on to
>   >>>> 
>   >>>> delete the tab panel. Putting this close icon
>   in the navigation
>   >>>> sequence would make extra navigation. Is there
>   some way to indicate
>   >>>> to a non-visual user that a tab panel can be
>   deleted with a defined
>   >>>> keystroke? Perhaps we can capture ctrl-w (the
>   key used in Firefox and
>   >>>> 
>   >>>> IE 7) to close a tab? T * here is still the
>   issue of the user knowing
>   >>>> 
>   >>>> that the tab is closable or not. Another option
>   is to provide a
>   >>>> context menu. With focus on the tab title the
>   user would press shift-
>   >>>> 
>   >>>> F10 to invoke a context menu - the context menu
>   would have the close
>   >>>> option. In both of these cases if the tab can
>   not be closed, it still
>   >>>> 
>   >>>> needs to capture the keystroke so that it
>   doesn't get bubbled up and
>   >>>> handled by the browser. Retrieved from
>   "http://www.weba11y.com/
>   >>>> styleguide/index.php?title=Tab_Panel"
>   >>>>
>   >>>> </quote>
>   >>>>
>   >>>> Don,
>   >>>>
>   >>>> Could you get this on the agenda for the Style
>   >>>> Guide Group to suggest a preferred user
>   experience?
>   >>>>
>   >>>> Al
>   >>>>
>   >>>> /satisfying ACTION-101
>   >>>>
>   >>>> PS:  I didn't immediately find an answer at
>   >>>> http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide#tabpanel
>   >>>>
>   >>>> 
>   >>>
>   >>> 
>   >> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>   >> Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>   >> Disability Resources and Educational Services
>   >>
>   >> Rehabilitation Education Center
>   >> Room 86
>   >> 1207 S. Oak Street
>   >> Champaign, Illinois 61821
>   >>
>   >> Voice: (217) 244-5870
>   >>
>   >> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>   >> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>   >>
>   >>
>   >>
>   >>
>   >> 
>   > Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
>   > Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
>   > Disability Resources and Educational Services
>   >
>   > Rehabilitation Education Center
>   > Room 86
>   > 1207 S. Oak Street
>   > Champaign, Illinois 61821
>   >
>   > Voice: (217) 244-5870
>   >
>   > WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
>   > WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > 
Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
Coordinator Information Technology Accessibility
Disability Resources and Educational Services

Rehabilitation Education Center
Room 86
1207 S. Oak Street
Champaign, Illinois 61821

Voice: (217) 244-5870

WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
Received on Tuesday, 4 March 2008 16:38:59 UTC

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