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draft minutes from 18 may 2007 DHTML Style Guide Telecon

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 13:18:08 -0400
To: wai-xtech@w3.org
Cc: Thomas.Wlodkowski@corp.aol.com
Message-Id: <20070518165801.M17531@hicom.net>

aloha, all!

draft minutes from today's DHTML Style Guide teleconference (logged on 
irc.w3.org#xtech and published to the web by RRSAgent) can be found at:

<http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html>

apologies for any misattributions; send corrections and comments to:

wai-xtech@w3.org

by replying to this post; please note that i didn't capture the full list 
of participants, but nearly everyone in attendance, i believe, took part 
in the dialog; if you didn't. but did attend the meeting, first, my 
apologies, and second, let me know by replying to this post.

gregory.

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                                   - DRAFT -

                       DHTML Style Guide Conference Call

18 May 2007

   See also: IRC log

Attendees

   Present
   Regrets
   Chair
          Thomas Wlodkowski

   Scribe
          Gregory Rosmaita

Contents

     * Topics
     * Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________________



   <scribe> scribe: Gregory Rosmaita

   <scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus

   TW: expected keyboard commands for widgets -- how should a tab panel
   be interacted with; becky working on dojo (ajax); AOL and Google
   working on these issues, Jon G is member of an email working group

   haven't made progress; moved to XTech so that could get more
   participation; biweekly calls - little email

   TW: immediate needs - where is there a sample site; Al Gilman getting
   ARIA wiki together, place to post, becky has wiki on her own site, but
   probably need to migrate once ARIA wiki created; end is to have a
   document that would list desired keyboard commands for widgets

   JonG: building a series of test widgets; part of documentation is
   keyboard support; want to ensure best practices; consistency of
   keystrokes; will send a link to current test

   TW: send to XTech

   JonG: what is URI of becky's wiki?

   becky: been using my WIKI to capture definitions; hash out proposals
   and have editors to clean up

   TW: proposals via email; when people have exammples, send a URI

   becky: been making decisions and making things with dojo -
   www.dojotool.org - nightly builds (may not be updated nightly)
   ... do a lot on the dojo wiki to document what we are doing for the
   widgets we are working on

   <davidb>
   http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/nightly/dojotoolkit/dijit/tests/

   TW: what makes it easier to get comments from end users and other
   folks? tell them to check out a TabPanel and give feedback -- if
   works, perhaps that becomes de facto keyboard gesture; now that Dojo
   has gone ahead, AOL working on keyboard access here, JonG working on
   ARIA test suites at CITA -- ideas for more exposure?
   ... tried to spark discussion -- need mechanism for free discussion
   about behavior of particular widget

   David: wiki a good idea; perhaps have a big table of widgets, layouts,
   etc. link to examples, notes as to why we chose things

   Bruce: some decisions made through dojo work; still makes sense to
   have seperate wiki, pointing to dojo; focus should be accessibility

   becky: can only hear every other word

   Bruce: wiki still makes sense even though dojo done a lot of
   implementations; link to dojo wiki as proof of concept or examples;
   central repository

   becky: don't have problem keeping wiki; backed off because don't want
   to have to post everything individually or open access to my web site;
   only issue with dojo is that a lot of the work still isn't done; going
   through a major overhaul -- redoing widgets, use bug-tracking system
   to ask for featureX and link to wiki, can agree or disagree, but may
   not be working; menu in pretty good shape; keyboard support for
   context menu implemented; checkboxes and radio but

   Bruce: links to dojo - no full implementation, but this is what is
   being worked upon

   TW: what is the most efficient way to do this: capture end result on
   wiki and put a pointer to wiki page to wai-xtech list? ask for
   feedback - does it work, does it not work; what is best way to get
   feedback

   becky: sometimes get sporadic response from XTech, most times nothing

   JonG: biweekly telecons - agenda of which widgets should be addressed;
   get consensus on keystrokes -- want to work on harder stuff

   TW: like biweekly meeting; TV Raman doesn't like phone - prefers email
   discussion
   ... keep momentum going, may have a meeting next week and then
   biweekly thereafter; developers need to tell us what is the same and
   what is different?

   becky: grid has serious issue -- is it like spreadsheet with no focus
   on header, or do you need focus on the header, how does it
   differentiate from table? particularly thorny problem: focus in
   headers or not
   ... allow people to havigate through actual headers; in cell, only get
   into row 1 column 1; in table with TableHeader should people be
   allowed to navigate header

   JonG: immediate benefit: textfield combo box, tree view, slider -- we
   could review those at first telecon, and update them to refelct
   consensus of group

   becky: TabPanel one i have additional questions on

   TW: preview, TabPanel, and slider; may only get through 1 widget in a
   call, whatever doesn't get covered gets carried to next meeting

   <becka11y> tree proposal is here:
   http://www.weba11y.com/styleguide/index.php?title=Tree

   JonG: what about dedicating portions of meeting to different widgets;
   give people a week to think about other people's thoughts

   TW: agree
   ... if there is a base implementation, when post agenda -- talk about
   TabPanel - there is one implementation in dojo that does X; at least
   gives us a base to start on call; repeat for each widget; where no
   work done on widget, a free-for-all until comes up on call -- might
   need to answer questions first: do headers need to have focus? what is
   diff between email grids and spreadsheet grids? sorting issues into
   questions that guide us; posting that type of info
   ... is friday at noon good for people on call?

   becky: fridays are hard

   TW: is there a day folks would prefer; want a standing meeting and
   meeting time, work on getting those working on implementations to code
   up test samples for us

   Gregory: friday

   David: anything but wednesday

   JonG: mondays and wednesdays bad

   becky: if works for most people i'm ok with that; if can't make it,
   will track via email; not going to be here next week -- memorial day
   holiday

   TW: then need to make it june 1 at noon ESDT, 9 PSDT

   Resolved: will meet biweekly beginning 1 june 2007 at noon EDST

   TW: everytime i turn around there is either an intellectual property
   issue, need to get a baseline down and then get agreement and
   consensus; what do people want behaviours to be?
   ... focus on tree and TabPanel and slider to begin with

   JonG: sent link to XTech

   TW: mirroring standard OS behaviors?

   JonG: up and down arrow move between items, right and left expand and
   collapse; haven't done a lot of testing with ATs, but works in MSAA
   Inspector (info is there);

   TW: do you have to TAB to get content?

   JonG: once in the tree, use arrow keys, if use TAB, would TAB out of
   tree; could toggle expand/collapse with spacebar; do we want a toggle
   or standfast fucntionality

   becky: tree written up; what i submitted to web mail group took
   comments and put in actual style guide

   TW: active regions need keyboard behaviors pre-defined or leave it to
   individual devs?

   becky: can't implement active regions yet, dojo has to work with
   FireFox 2; even if can't mark up regions right now and have them
   identified by AT want people to be able to move from region to region
   - can't implement as live regions until FireFox 3 comes out

   TW: wide-open for widgets we discuss; better if ahead of
   implementation, with knowledge that ideas need to evolve; talk about
   widgets before marked up - set paramaters; is there a list of widgets

   <scribe> ACTION: Becky will post list of dojo widgets to wai-xtech
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action01]

   TW: how do we make list iterative; if not on wiki, what will people
   do?

   becky: on wiki or mail list?

   TW: mailing list is fine, but want things documented on wiki

   becky: i'll be responsible to transfer from list to wiki

   <scribe> ACTION: TW send out email to XTech - next meeting 1 June 2007
   - topic will be: tree, slider, TabPanel [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action02]

   <scribe> ACTION: EVERYONE: find implementations that haven't already
   been tracked slash listed [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action03]

   <scribe> ACTION: Becky will be responsible for transfer of information
   from XTech to wiki [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action04]

   JonG: CITA slider works with JAWS with virtual PC cursor off --
   updates values correctly

   TW: how do we resolve keystrokes used by AT and those reserved for
   widgets;

   JonG: issue with ARIA things; most screen readers have web navigation
   mode, currently have to go out of web navigation mode, which is a
   kludge; needs implementation -- user doesn't want to have to learn yet
   another mode

   becky: already have to do that for forms

   JonG: yes

   Bruce: bring this to attention of AT vendors

   <davidb> (that was me)

   TW: definitely; Glen Gordon (Freedom Scientific)

   <davidb> no problem :)

   TW: raise at meetings; users have to use bypass key on JAWS and
   Window-Eyes have to teach user

   GJR: most screen reader users know about passthrough keys

   JonG: want to keep learning curve to a minimum

   TW: ease of use and communicating to end user; when get into ARIA or
   dynamic widgets but how can you communicate to user?

   becky: trying to stay away from keyboard shortcuts; for dojo have to
   document for widgets, up to dev to give info to user

   web based media player -- same functionality expected from similar
   apps; how do we make web apps less and less than navigating a web
   document, and more like interaction with software

   becky: in scripting have timing issues;
   ... have to write all keyboard handlers in scripting

   GJR: general keyboard gestures and behavior - let user set modifier

   TW: any other issues?

   next meeting: discussion of tree, slider, and TabPanel (20 minutes
   each); use same call in number and passcode for next meeting;

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Becky will be responsible for transfer of information
   from XTech to wiki [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action04]
   
   [NEW] ACTION: Becky will post list of dojo widgets to wai-xtech
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action01]

   [NEW] ACTION: EVERYONE: find implementations that haven't already been
   tracked slash listed [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action03]

   [NEW] ACTION: TW send out email to XTech - next meeting 1 June 2007 -
   topic will be: tree, slider, TabPanel [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/05/18-xtech-minutes.html#action02]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________________


----------------------------------------------------------------
CONSERVATIVE, n.  A statesman who is enamored of existing evils,
as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them 
with others.         -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
----------------------------------------------------------------
             Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus@hicom.net
  Camera Obscura: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------
Received on Friday, 18 May 2007 17:18:15 GMT

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