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Re: popups to provide more information

From: T.V Raman <raman@google.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:43:26 -0800
Message-ID: <17887.31774.962471.603932@retriever.corp.google.com>
To: poehlman1@comcast.net
Cc: raman@google.com, aleventh@us.ibm.com, Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com, gez.lemon@gmail.com, wai-xtech@w3.org


sorry to have been vague -- what I meant was:

When thinking of links as specialized triggers, the fact that
keybindings differ is sort of in the noise.

That's not to say that keybindings are unimportant, 
but rather that just because  I implement a control tomorrow that
acts smells and walks like a button, but in addition speaks a
summary of what it will do if I press ".",
that doesn't stop it being a "button" -- it's just an even more
special button. 

In that sense, I believe links  are buttons, be it very
specialized buttons.

David Poehlman writes:
 > TV, What does this mean?
 > 
 > On Feb 23, 2007, at 10:50 AM, T.V Raman wrote:
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > the keybinding is in the noise.
 > 
 > Aaron M Leventhal writes:
 > > There is another difference between links and buttons though.
 > >
 > > Links don't accept the space bar to activate them. Buttons do.
 > >
 > > Yes semantically they're similar and one could inherit from the  
 > > other in
 > > the wairole hierarchy, but it needs it's own role.
 > >
 > > - Aaron
 > >
 > > Aaron Leventhal
 > > IBM web accessibility architect
 > > Voice: 781-583-4083
 > > Tie line: 364-5945
 > > http://www.mozilla.org/access
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com>
 > > Sent by: wai-xtech-request@w3.org
 > > 02/22/2007 07:03 PM
 > >
 > > To
 > > gez.lemon@gmail.com
 > > cc
 > > Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com, wai-xtech@w3.org
 > > Subject
 > > Re: popups to provide more information
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > Better yet -- but along the same lines, in the Web context, it
 > > might be useful to think of role:link as a specialized "button".
 > >
 > > Button is actually a "trigger" --- a thing that when activated
 > > executes an action.
 > >
 > > Links on the Web -- including html:a -- the beloved anchor
 > > element -- are in fact specialized triggers
 > > that have a default event handler for  event dom:activate; the
 > > event handler follows the link --- and since this is a "builtin"
 > > behavior, devleopers never need write that event handler.
 > >
 > > Modeled this way, anchor links whose default behavior gets
 > > overridden by an onclick attribute i.e. the
 > > <a href="#" onclick="javascript:mumble">click me </a>
 > > also fall into place correctly.
 > >
 > > Aside: I still consider the above href="#" an abomination --- but
 > > one that is sadly here to stay.
 > >
 > > Gez Lemon writes:
 > >>
 > >> Hi Becky,
 > >>
 > >>> One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as a link or a
 > >>> button.  The yahoo example implements this as a link. I would  
 > >>> surmise
 > > that
 > >>> is done so the link will still work if scripting is not available.
 > > But
 > >>> the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a small double
 > > down
 > >>> arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup.   My first
 > > question is
 > >>> should this be given a role of link or button?   Using button gives
 > > the
 > >>> opportunity to also include the haspopup property.
 > >>
 > >> I think in this case, a link would be the correct choice. I think
 > >> buttons should be reserved for explicit commands, such as "Sort",
 > >> "Search", "Filter", etc, and that links are the correct choice when
 > >> fetching a resource. Web applications tend to blur this distinction,
 > >> so although clicking on a link in this example executes the  
 > >> command to
 > >> gather the collection of related articles, as far as the visitor is
 > >> concerned, it's fetching a resource (the collection of articles). I
 > >> favour using a role of link, and allowing the haspopup property on
 > >> anchor elements.
 > >>
 > >> Best regards,
 > >>
 > >> Gez
 > >>
 > >> On 22/02/07, Becky Gibson <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com> wrote:
 > >>>
 > >>> I'm going to borrow an example from Yahoo to discuss the appropriate
 > > roles
 > >>> and behavior to use for popups.   Some yahoo pages have a link that
 > > will
 > >>> use Ajax to make a search request for more information and display
 > > the
 > >>> resulting links in a popup on the page.  Find and click on the Iran
 > > and
 > >>> Iraq links in this page:
 > >>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ 
 > >>> iraq_070215121462.
 > >>> A popup is displayed that contains more information. Focus is not  
 > >>> put
 > > into
 > >>> the popup but with focus on the link that invokes the popup you can
 > > tab
 > >>> into the bottom of the popup by pressing shift-tab.  The popup
 > > contains
 > >>> help and close links at the top of the popup as well as links to  
 > >>> more
 > >>> information and some structural links.
 > >>>
 > >>> This is probably a good example for ARIA live regions but since
 > > support
 > >>> for those will not be available until Firefox 3 I would like to
 > > consider
 > >>> implementations that can be used in Firefox today.
 > >>>
 > >>> One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as a link or a
 > >>> button.  The yahoo example implements this as a link. I would  
 > >>> surmise
 > > that
 > >>> is done so the link will still work if scripting is not available.
 > > But
 > >>> the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a small double
 > > down
 > >>> arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup.   My first
 > > question is
 > >>> should this be given a role of link or button?   Using button gives
 > > the
 > >>> opportunity to also include the haspopup property.  Currently
 > > haspopup is
 > >>> only available on buttons and menus.  I think we should encourage
 > > ARIA to
 > >>> allow the haspopup property on any element.
 > >>>
 > >>> My other proposed behavior for this type of more information popup
 > > is:
 > >>> 1) the popup should get the role of dialog
 > >>> 2) focus should be placed into the popup when it is opened
 > >>> 3) the popup should be made modal via scripting - focus can not  
 > >>> leave
 > > the
 > >>> dialog except by clicking another link or closing it
 > >>> 4) the popup can be closed by pressing escape or via a close button
 > >>>
 > >>> thoughts?
 > >>>
 > >>> Becky Gibson
 > >>> Web Accessibility Architect
 > >>>
 > >>> IBM Emerging Internet Technologies
 > >>> 5 Technology Park Drive
 > >>> Westford, MA 01886
 > >>> Voice: 978 399-6101; t/l 333-6101
 > >>> Email: gibsonb@us.ibm.com
 > >>>
 > >>>
 > >>>
 > >>>
 > >>
 > >>
 > >> -- 
 > >> _____________________________
 > >> Supplement your vitamins
 > >> http://juicystudio.com
 > >
 > > -- 
 > > Best Regards,
 > > --raman
 > >
 > > Title:  Research Scientist
 > > Email:  raman@google.com
 > > WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
 > > Google: tv+raman
 > > GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
 > > PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">There is another difference between
 > > links and buttons though.</font>
 > > <br>
 > > <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Links don't accept the space bar to
 > > activate them. Buttons do.</font>
 > > <br>
 > > <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Yes semantically they're similar  
 > > and
 > > one could inherit from the other in the wairole hierarchy, but it  
 > > needs
 > > it's own role.</font>
 > > <br>
 > > <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">- Aaron</font>
 > > <br>
 > > <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Aaron Leventhal<br>
 > > IBM web accessibility architect<br>
 > > Voice: 781-583-4083<br>
 > > Tie line: 364-5945<br>
 > > http://www.mozilla.org/access<br>
 > > </font>
 > > <br>
 > > <br>
 > > <br>
 > > <table width=100%>
 > > <tr valign=top>
 > > <td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;T.V  
 > > Raman&quot; &lt;raman@google.com&gt;</b>
 > > </font>
 > > <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: wai-xtech- 
 > > request@w3.org</font>
 > > <p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">02/22/2007 07:03 PM</font>
 > > <td width=59%>
 > > <table width=100%>
 > > <tr valign=top>
 > > <td>
 > > <div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
 > > <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">gez.lemon@gmail.com</font>
 > > <tr valign=top>
 > > <td>
 > > <div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
 > > <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com,  
 > > wai-xtech@w3.org</font>
 > > <tr valign=top>
 > > <td>
 > > <div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
 > > <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: popups to provide more  
 > > information</font></table>
 > > <br>
 > > <table>
 > > <tr valign=top>
 > > <td>
 > > <td></table>
 > > <br></table>
 > > <br>
 > > <br>
 > > <br><tt><font size=2><br>
 > > <br>
 > > Better yet -- but along the same lines, in the Web context, it<br>
 > > might be useful to think of role:link as a specialized  
 > > &quot;button&quot;.<br>
 > > <br>
 > > Button is actually a &quot;trigger&quot; --- a thing that when  
 > > activated<br>
 > > executes an action.<br>
 > > <br>
 > > Links on the Web -- including html:a -- the beloved anchor<br>
 > > element -- are in fact specialized triggers <br>
 > > that have a default event handler for &nbsp;event dom:activate;  
 > > the<br>
 > > event handler follows the link --- and since this is a  
 > > &quot;builtin&quot;<br>
 > > behavior, devleopers never need write that event handler.<br>
 > > <br>
 > > Modeled this way, anchor links whose default behavior gets<br>
 > > overridden by an onclick attribute i.e. the <br>
 > > &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot;  
 > > onclick=&quot;javascript:mumble&quot;&gt;click
 > > me &lt;/a&gt;<br>
 > > also fall into place correctly.<br>
 > > <br>
 > > Aside: I still consider the above href=&quot;#&quot; an abomination  
 > > ---
 > > but<br>
 > > one that is sadly here to stay.<br>
 > > <br>
 > > Gez Lemon writes:<br>
 > >  &gt; <br>
 > >  &gt; Hi Becky,<br>
 > >  &gt; <br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as  
 > > a link
 > > or a<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; button. &nbsp;The yahoo example implements this as a  
 > > link. I
 > > would surmise that<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; is done so the link will still work if scripting is not  
 > > available.
 > > &nbsp;But<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a  
 > > small double
 > > down<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup.  
 > > &nbsp; My
 > > first question is<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; should this be given a role of link or button? &nbsp; Using
 > > button gives the<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; opportunity to also include the haspopup property.<br>
 > >  &gt; <br>
 > >  &gt; I think in this case, a link would be the correct choice. I  
 > > think<br>
 > >  &gt; buttons should be reserved for explicit commands, such as  
 > > &quot;Sort&quot;,<br>
 > >  &gt; &quot;Search&quot;, &quot;Filter&quot;, etc, and that links  
 > > are the
 > > correct choice when<br>
 > >  &gt; fetching a resource. Web applications tend to blur this  
 > > distinction,<br>
 > >  &gt; so although clicking on a link in this example executes the  
 > > command
 > > to<br>
 > >  &gt; gather the collection of related articles, as far as the visitor
 > > is<br>
 > >  &gt; concerned, it's fetching a resource (the collection of  
 > > articles).
 > > I<br>
 > >  &gt; favour using a role of link, and allowing the haspopup  
 > > property on<br>
 > >  &gt; anchor elements.<br>
 > >  &gt; <br>
 > >  &gt; Best regards,<br>
 > >  &gt; <br>
 > >  &gt; Gez<br>
 > >  &gt; <br>
 > >  &gt; On 22/02/07, Becky Gibson  
 > > &lt;Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com&gt; wrote:<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; I'm going to borrow an example from Yahoo to discuss the  
 > > appropriate
 > > roles<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; and behavior to use for popups. &nbsp; Some yahoo pages  
 > > have
 > > a link that will<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; use Ajax to make a search request for more information  
 > > and display
 > > the<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; resulting links in a popup on the page. &nbsp;Find and  
 > > click
 > > on the Iran and<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; Iraq links in this page:<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ 
 > > iraq_070215121462.<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; A popup is displayed that contains more information.  
 > > Focus is
 > > not put into<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; the popup but with focus on the link that invokes the popup
 > > you can tab<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; into the bottom of the popup by pressing shift-tab.  
 > > &nbsp;The
 > > popup contains<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; help and close links at the top of the popup as well as  
 > > links
 > > to more<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; information and some structural links.<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; This is probably a good example for ARIA live regions  
 > > but since
 > > support<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; for those will not be available until Firefox 3 I would  
 > > like
 > > to consider<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; implementations that can be used in Firefox today.<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; One issue that comes up is should this be implemented as  
 > > a link
 > > or a<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; button. &nbsp;The yahoo example implements this as a  
 > > link. I
 > > would surmise that<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; is done so the link will still work if scripting is not  
 > > available.
 > > &nbsp;But<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; the link also has a visual indicator next to it of a  
 > > small double
 > > down<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; arrow, I assume to indicate that it opens a popup.  
 > > &nbsp; My
 > > first question is<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; should this be given a role of link or button? &nbsp; Using
 > > button gives the<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; opportunity to also include the haspopup property.  
 > > &nbsp;Currently
 > > haspopup is<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; only available on buttons and menus. &nbsp;I think we  
 > > should
 > > encourage ARIA to<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; allow the haspopup property on any element.<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; My other proposed behavior for this type of more  
 > > information
 > > popup is:<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; 1) the popup should get the role of dialog<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; 2) focus should be placed into the popup when it is  
 > > opened<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; 3) the popup should be made modal via scripting - focus can
 > > not leave the<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; dialog except by clicking another link or closing it<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; 4) the popup can be closed by pressing escape or via a  
 > > close
 > > button<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; thoughts?<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; Becky Gibson<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; Web Accessibility Architect<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; IBM Emerging Internet Technologies<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; 5 Technology Park Drive<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; Westford, MA 01886<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; Voice: 978 399-6101; t/l 333-6101<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt; Email: gibsonb@us.ibm.com<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; &gt;<br>
 > >  &gt; <br>
 > >  &gt; <br>
 > >  &gt; -- <br>
 > >  &gt; _____________________________<br>
 > >  &gt; Supplement your vitamins<br>
 > >  &gt; http://juicystudio.com<br>
 > > <br>
 > > -- <br>
 > > Best Regards,<br>
 > > --raman<br>
 > > <br>
 > > Title: &nbsp;Research Scientist &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
 > > Email: &nbsp;raman@google.com<br>
 > > WWW: &nbsp; &nbsp;http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/<br>
 > > Google: tv+raman <br>
 > > GTalk: &nbsp;raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com<br>
 > > PGP: &nbsp; &nbsp;http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc<br>
 > > <br>
 > > <br>
 > > </font></tt>
 > > <br>
 > 
 > -- 
 > Best Regards,
 > --raman
 > 
 > Title:  Research Scientist
 > Email:  raman@google.com
 > WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
 > Google: tv+raman
 > GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
 > PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
 > 
 > 

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

Title:  Research Scientist      
Email:  raman@google.com
WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
Google: tv+raman 
GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
Received on Friday, 23 February 2007 23:44:54 GMT

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