W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > wai-xtech@w3.org > August 2007

WYSIWYG, GUI, visual & non-semantic editors in the HTML5 draft

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:51:40 -0400
To: wai-xtech@w3.org
Cc: jutta.treviranus@utoronto.ca, gv@trace.wisc.edu, jimallan@tsbvi.edu, mailto:lorettaguarino@google.com, jan.richards@utoronto.ca, cooper@w3.org, jbrewer@w3.org, alfred.s.gilman@ieee.org
Message-Id: <20070814004333.M39459@hicom.net>

i am forwarding this in its entirety, because it addresses issues
directly related to WAI activities, past, present & future...

this post is archived at:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0448.html>
where the thread will (presumably) continue...  gregory.

----- Forwarded Post -----
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:50:14 -0500   
From: Robert Burns <rob@robburns.com>         
To: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
Subject: WYSIWYG, GUI, visual and non-semantic editors: part of my review 
of 9 WYSIWYG editors


------------------------------------------------ 
Summary 
------------------------------------------------ 

  * A chapter should be devoted to visual editing UAs 
  * The WYSIWYG categorization is not focussed enough 
  * Either the visual editing UAs chapter or another 
    chapter should discuss non-semantic editing UAs 
    and converters 
  * Another chapter should cover sending and receiving Mail 
  * Another chapter should content management solutions 

------------------------------------------------ 
Taxonomy of editing UAs and converting UAs: WYSIWYG, 
GUI, visual, and semantic, non-semantic
------------------------------------------------

Currently the chapter addresses WYSIWYG editing UAs. However, the   
term WYSIWYG does not really fit here. WYSIWYG often is used to   
describe fidelity between screen and print versions of the same   
document. In the context of HTML editing UA, it often implies user- 
invoked or live rendered view of the HTML. This can occur even when   
the editor is a text editor (for example BBEdit is a GUI text editor   
that provides WYSIWYG editing). With this in mind, I think clarifying   
precisely how to use these terms is warranted. Also, I think the main   
topic that needs to be addressed is how non-semantic editing UAs and   
converting UAs should produce HTML serializations (either text/html   
or XML). 

The key categories to consider here are: 

WYSIWYG versus source-view only 
GUI versus Command-line 
Visual versus non-visual 
Semantic versus non-semantic\ 

Considering BBEdit again, this is an HTML editor that is WYSIWYG, GUI,   
non-visual and mostly semantic (though flexible). Another editor such   
as emacs is a source-view-only,  command-line, non-visual and   
flexible with respect to semantics or non-semantics. NVU represents   
an example of a WYSIWYG, GUI, visual and largely non-semantic editor. 

Microsoft Word constitutes a non-HTML editor that has the ability to   
convert its content to HTML. As a converter, the other aspects really   
do not come into play. Here we're only concerned with its native   
format and its ability and likelihood  of containing semantic   
constructs. Since Word is largely a non-semantic editor it will   
produce mostly non-semantic data. The conversion of a word file to   
HTML should similarly produce non-semantic output. This could be done   
entirely through DIV and SPAN elements and with linked or embedded   
stylesheets (TextEdit on Mac OS X is an excellent example of a   
WYSIWYG , GUI, visual, non-semantic editor that produces great fully   
conforming HTML output separating HTML from CSS). The converter may   
also use the I and B elements to map from italics and bold styling   
respectively. Some formats may even contain headings (implicit and   
explicit) data and be able to successfully map semantic concepts of   
such things as paragraphs, sections, and headings into the converted   
HTML. Other semantics may be included in a format produced by a   
largely non-semantic editor. Converters should do their best to   
preserve and map those semantics to the appropriate HTML constructs,   
but should be careful in heuristically mapping non-semantics to   
semantic constructs. 


------------------------------------------------ 
WYSIWYG editing UAs 
------------------------------------------------ 

The current draft basically addresses the issue of WYSIWYG editing   
UAs in relation to the FONT element and the @style attribute.   
However, these are more problems of a non-semantic editor[1] than   
anything inherent to WYSIWYG editing UAs. The chapter should be   
renamed accordingly. 

Moreover, there's nothing really gained by maintaining a separate   
element to HTML5 named FONT. This offers no additional semantic   
information than DIV or SPAN. It simply adds a distinction where none   
exists. Non-semantic editing UAs, and converting UAs converting from   
non-semantic formats, should simply use DIV or SPAN. Whatever ways   
HTML5 pursues to associate style sheet data should also be used,   
whether that is an @style attribute, embedded style sheets or linked   
style sheets. 

So much of what is said in this chapter is both misdirected and   
unnecessary for HTML5. The chapter as written should be removed.   
However, we certainly have a need to provide norms and other guidance   
for authoring tools: particularly non-semantic authoring tools   
whether they be editing UAs or converting UAs. 

We should also provide guidance for semantic visual editing UAs to   
ensure these authoring tools provide the best possible HTML output   
they can provide. Since the visual interface in these editing UAs   
provides a layer of abstraction between the author and the content   
produced by the tool, it is important to keep the visual layer and   
the underlying source output as tightly integrated as possible. 


------------------------------------------------ 
Fully-semantic visual editing UAs. 
------------------------------------------------ 

For visual editing UAs that are fully semantic, we should provide the   
following guidance and norms: 

  * Editing UAs must map visual objects accurately to HTML constructs. 

  Examples: 
    - a strong emphasis menu item or button to the STRONG element 
    - a bold menu item to the B element. 
    - an editor that produces a 2D grid or spreadsheet might map that   
      to a table 

  * Editing UAs must avoid performing heuristics from authors work,   
    without providing immediate visual feedback to authors and must 
    allow authors to override the heuristics. 

  Examples: 
    - an editor that adds @headers attributes to TD elements or   
      @scope attributes to TH elements should present the associated 
      cells to the author (editing UAs may even want to present 
      associations to provide feedback when not adding @scope or 
      @headers) 

  * Editing UAs must not include attributes or elements to round-end   
    conformance norms without direct author action 

  Examples: 
    - adding alt="" to an IMG element to fool conformance checkers). 
    - adding summary="" to a TABLE element 

  * Editing UAs that provide greater semantic differentiation than   
    HTML, should use the @class attribute to provide its own 
    semantic extensions to HTML. 

  Examples:
    - a DocBook editor might use a <p class='' > ... or <div   
      class='' >... to express the semantics of a ... 

  * Visual Editing UAs must provide a mechanism for authors to edit
    other portions of the document outside the main flow, including   
    metadata and attributes and element contents not otherwise 
    visible from the default styling (OBJECT, long descriptions, 
    TABLE summary, etc.). 

  Examples:
    - OBJECT contents 
    - @title, @class, @xml:lang and other global attributes 
    -  document fragment contents targeted by @longdesc 
    - TABLE summary 
    - TD and TH @abbr attributes 
    - @alt attribute 
    - @href and @src attributes 

These norms should apply to Editing UAs claiming to be hTML Editing   
UAs as well as to Editing UAs that natively manipulate other semantic   
content that can be fully mapped to HTML. 


------------------------------------------------ 
Non-semantic (partially or fully non-semantic) editing UAs and UAs   
converting non-semantic content: 
------------------------------------------------ 

For editing UAs that visually expose non-semantic constructs or   
semantic constructs that express fewer semantics, then HTML, a   
difficulty arises in mapping the vocabulary of the tool to the   
vocabulary of HTML.  Accordingly, we should develop a series of norms   
for these editing editing UAs -- and UAs that convert formats -- to   
deal with the semantic deficiencies. 

  * Editing UAs and converters must not map presentational constructs
    to semantic constructs 

  Examples: 
    - must not map bold to STRONG or italics to EM. 
    - must not map italics to STRONG or italics to EM 
    - should map bold to B and italics to I. 

  * Editing UAs and converters must solicit user input when
    heuristically mapping presentational idioms to semantic 
    HTML constructs 

  * Editing UAs and converters of non-semantic constructs should map
    presentation with ambiguous semantics to SPAN and DIV elements;
    incorporate @class and @id attributes on these elements as and
    convert the presentational properties of the elements as CSS 
    (either in a linked separate stylesheet or as an embedded 
    stylesheet) [2]. 


------------------------------------------------ 
Conclusion 
------------------------------------------------ 

By keeping the issues of WYSIWYG, GUI, visual and semantic separate,   
we will send a clearer message to editing and converting tools.   
Following this approach there is no need to lower the bar for visual   
editing UAs. Even for non-semantic tools, the bar need not be   
lowered. These tools could still use linked or embedded stylesheets   
and id and class selectors to preserve presentation information. Even   
if we followed an earlier suggestion of mine [3] to  require authors   
include at least one attribute on each SPAN (and DIV), the non- 
semantic tools would still produce fully compliant content since   
their SPAN and DIV elements would need to include a @style, @class or   
@id attribute. 

Take care, 
Rob 

[1]: Nicholas Schanks has an interesting example of using FONT in an   
entirely semantic (though very rarefied) way
<http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-
April/010899.html>
I don't think HTML calls for that level of specialized semantic. That 
could be left to a TypographyML or something like that. 

[2]: Again, see Apple's TextEdit application for an example of a non- 
semantic editor that could produce fully compliant HTML5. 

[3]: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0963.html>
Received on Tuesday, 14 August 2007 00:52:27 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Friday, 27 April 2012 13:15:43 GMT